Wikipedia talk:Template index/User talk namespace

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This page is part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject User warnings. This means that the WikiProject has identified it as part of the user warning system. The WikiProject itself is an attempt to standardise and improve user warnings, and conform them to technical guidelines. Your help is welcome, so feel free to join in.

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Explain where the message came from

It would be nice if the user warning templates had a standard disclaimer at the bottom saying something like:

The above message is a standardized template created by the user warnings project. You may discuss the contents of these templates at the user warning talk page.

The end of the above is in bold because I am posting this message on the page it links to. The idea being to deflect any ill feelings about the wording of the message away from the person actually posting the message. --Pascal⁶⁶⁶ 00:16, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I like this idea, particularly for the templates that warn of blocking, etc. I've gotten very strong negative feedback from using some of the templates. Jeh (talk) 07:37, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno, I think if this is done it should be for a trial period. This is a useful page, serving as talk page for many widely used user messages, and we wouldn't want it swamped with – er – unconstructive contributions, or arguments about the merits of the revert rather than the wording of the message. Those receiving this negative feedback, if they think it justified, can always come here: Noyster (talk), 12:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence is the important one, the second can simply be left off. Or can you suggest a better message? --Pascal⁶⁶⁶ 15:08, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe not the talk page link, per others' comments, but the other part sounds good.

request a slight change

This edit request to Template:Uw-vandalism1 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change current text for Template:Uw-vandalism1 from;

Hello, I'm Example. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think a mistake was made, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks.

to;

Hello, I'm Example. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Help Desk. Thanks.

Thank you - ^theWOLFchild 02:21, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. This is not a "slight change". -- John of Reading (talk) 08:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@John of Reading: - This is not a "slight change". - Of course it is. The notice basically remains the same, except at the end, we're now simply directing these would-be vandals to the help desk where they are less likely to vandalize further and more likely to be set in the right direction, instead of inviting them back to our own talk pages to vandalize further in revenge for being reverted and warned. This is win-win. Now if you can't see that for yourself, just how and where do you propose I establish consensus for this? (and thanks for linking "consensus", I had no idea what it meant). Do I just wait and see if anyone happens to pass by this section, of this page, and !votes? As a template editor, surely you can make minor, obvious improvements on your own? Especially one like this that is not "controversial", (and save me the trouble of manually changing each notice to this new variant anyway, every time I use the template... ) Thanks - ^theWOLFchild 16:26, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with the proposed change, as I think those placing these templated user notices should be prepared to justify them if challenged. There is also a saving of labour this way, as the editor placing the template already knows why, whereas a help desk volunteer would have to look up the edit and its context before concocting a reply.

Many of the new or inexperienced editors or IPs who receive these Level 1 user messages are not malicious vandals (and the message doesn't accuse them of this), just not aware of Wikipedia standards and practice. However, in my experience it is quite rare for such editors to take up the invitation to my talk page. If they respond at all, they just repeat the edit, or type something on their own talk page below the template, without a ping so it's only picked up if I am watching that talk page. But if they are bent on mischief, isn't it better for them to temporarily damage one user's talk page rather than a highly visible venue like a help desk?

Now about seeking consensus: if a proposal on the relevant project talk page isn't getting a response, there are the village pumps. But this page I see has 840 watchers, and doubles as the talk page for the WikiProject on user warnings. It should attract an adequate range of views (he says hopefully): Noyster (talk), 17:26, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, thank you for your response. But, I'm not clear how it supports, or really even explains your "oppose". To quote your own words; "...in my experience it is quite rare for such editors to take up the invitation to my talk page.", so, again... then why are we adding this suggestion at the end of the message? You go on to say; "If they respond at all, they just repeat the edit, or type something on their own talk page below the template, without a ping so it's only picked up if I am watching that talk page." Sounds like they could benefit from some advice if they were directed to, say... the help desk? But you oppose that because; "There is also a saving of labour this way," (not directing them to the help desk) "as the editor placing the template already knows why, whereas a help desk volunteer would have to look up the edit and its context before concocting a reply." But, isn't that why the volunteers are at the help desk in the first place? You want to "save them the trouble of helping people"...? And how labor-intensive is it really to click a link or two? Anyway, like I said... thank you for your response. Despite the oppose, it actually helps support my proposed change. Cheers - ^theWOLFchild 17:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's 2 out of 840. Anyone else? - ^theWOLFchild 20:04, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This change is not minor because it removes the advice on what the user should do if (they believe) they were templated in error. If it was a mistake why should they go to the help desk? I have indeed hesitated to use this template at times because of it directing the user back to my page, which even adding a signature does, but I don't think this proposed change adequately addresses the scenarios now covered. ~~What other first step should someone take in the event of an erroneous template? I can't think of anything more appropriate.~~ —DIYeditor (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, like you said, our signature is right there at the end of the message, with a link to our user/talk page. If they feel we've made a mistake, and they are knowledgeable enough, they can tell us directly what they think with one click. If they lack even that basic usage knowledge, then the help desk is exactly where we should be directing them. Like I said, it's win-win. Not sure why you guys keep saying you 'oppose' this change while at the same time posting comments that support it. So let's just change it already. I'm sure the whole project won't collapse overnight. If it does, just tell Jim and the gang to blame me. - ^theWOLFchild 09:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One way to pull in more opinions would be to make an RfC of it, and it is important to ensure that we have these wordings right in view of the sheer volume of use, with 200,000 uses of {{uw-vandalism1}} and another 150,000 uses of {{uw-unsourced1}}. That said, consensus for changing the wordings is rarely reached as seen in previous discussions here, such as this and this, and it will be pointed out that the wordings were extensively tested by WMF (details here): Noyster (talk), 09:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Great! More bureaucracy and grief. Thanks for the reply, but I think it'll just be easier for me to continue changing the wording manually after I add the template, instead of dancing in this circus just to request such a minor and obvious improvement. Good work everyone, carry on... - ^theWOLFchild 11:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For editors who prefer not to offer to deal with any comeback themselves, or don't like the wording for any other reason, they may always set up an amended template for their own use: just copy over the code of the existing template, amend the wording to taste, and save as a user subpage: Noyster (talk), 13:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's something I was considering last night before I turned in/off, but thanks for the tip. Cheers - ^theWOLFchild 19:01, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me that I usually avoid using level-1 templates, starting with level-2, for this reason. There are exceptions where I want to invite discussion on my user page, but I often find it unproductive for blatant vandalism warnings. —Paleo Neonate – 08:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually noticed that quite a few editors go straight to the second level templates, and I imagine that in most cases it's for the same reason we've mentioned here. People aren't interested in inviting drama to their own talk pages just because they volunteered some of their time to help the project and clean up the vandalism. I did notice that the Template:Uw-nor1 notice doesn't invite people back to the posters talk page, and yet the project survives. Still not sure why the other notices can't follow suit. John of Reading has become silent on the subject. Anyway... we're up to 4 out of 840, we're really rolling now! - ^theWOLFchild 15:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Thewolfchild: I imagine 4 out of 840 is about as far as this is going to go without attracting some attention first. Maybe you could start an RfC on removing the invitation to the warning user's talk page from all the level 1 templates? Any arguments for one apply to the others, and I see that this is in every one that I checked (just the first few that stood out on the page admittedly). This really would require some broader consensus. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised it got this many replies. I'll think about doing an RfC, but I have feeling it would be a waste of time. Thanks for the replies though... - ^theWOLFchild 21:59, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

impromptu straw poll

Support removal of invitation to user talk page from level 1 warning templates. I think this is actually an interesting question since it appears in some of the most sensitive level 1 warnings but not the others. A "tech" RfC might not get much more attention than this section has already but if it were advertised as well in Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) I'm sure it would get a response. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
support removing to come to "my" talk page. I often change to "leave a message below", which I think is better, but the HelpDesk is better than "my talk page". Jytdog (talk) 03:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support (as requester) woohoo, we're off to the races... - ^theWOLFchild 06:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per my comment above. —Paleo Neonate – 08:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are those among us who deprecate the whole practice of sending templated messages via Twinkle. Myself, I think the system is a great time-saver; but the anti-template case is strengthened if we seem to want to delegate to someone else the task of dealing with any feedback. Why shouldn't we even offer to explain or justify our own actions? As far as I know the present messages are not causing anyone's talk page to be overwhelmed with constant vandalism: Noyster (talk), 17:26, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I noticed (from experience when I used level-1) is that it also encourages editors to debate on personal user pages instead of at the relevant article's talk page (so I had to redirect discussions). Justification is usually already done via edit summaries with a relevant link to policy, style guide, etc. —Paleo Neonate – 10:16, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and the template should ideally be chosen to give a good idea of what was wrong of course... —Paleo Neonate – 10:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, and to reply to Noysters point, I actually use the optional comment sections often and write addition information. I also ensure every talk page has a 'welcome' template, and if it doesn't, I add one and direct the user to read thru it. And I will say again, we sign these notices with links to our talk pages. If the user wants to contact us directly, and not about an article issue, then our tp is a click away. This express invite is simply not needed and the notice would be better served if the user was directed to someplace more beneficial to them, like the help desk, or the teahouse, or the ref desk, or the pump, or the bah-zillion links in the welcome template that could address more specific issues. Thus far, I have not seen one, solid reason to not make this change, other than "I don't want to". But if you "deprecate" the use of these notices in the first place, what do you care what they say? - ^theWOLFchild 14:06, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@John of Reading: Hi, as you can see, there was a discussion and now consensus in support of the change I proposed. So if you see that done, it would be appreciated. Thanks - ^theWOLFchild 07:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Thewolfchild: I have no experience in evaluating a consensus. I have re-activated the edit request so that other template editors or admins will look at it. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:19, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@John of Reading: -This has now been up for 27 days... is there really a need to drag this out any further? I followed your request, a number of editors responded, a straw poll shows a consensus in favour of the change. This is why you have template editor tool (and anyone having this tool should be able to "evaluate" a simple and obvious consensus). Please drop the WP:STICK already and make the change the community has asked for. Thank you. - ^theWOLFchild 17:39, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Thewolfchild: I no longer have the right to edit this template. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@John of Reading: Wow. That's, um... a little dramatic. But still, probably for the best. Anyhow, best of luck to you in your future editing endeavors. - ^theWOLFchild 22:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so... is there a template editor here, that still has his or her rights, that can make this change now? Please? - ^theWOLFchild 23:06, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blatant vandalism and subtle vandalism having the same level 3-5 warning templates?

They have the same level 3 warning template. Blatant vandalism has a level 4 warning template and a level 5 warning template, but subtle vandalism has neither. Since blatant vandalism's level 4 and 5 warning templates seem to be general to all vandalism, and blatant vandalism and subtle vandalism alread share a level 3 warning template, can we say that subtle vandalism has the same level 4 and 5 warning templates as blatant vandalism? Also, can we have one box that stretches across two rows, instead of two separate boxes for each level 3+ vandalism warning template, so make it obvious and apparent that they're the same template? The N^th User I have no ideas for what to put here. Care to differ or discuss? 00:50, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think using multirow boxes makes things more confusing for the editor reading the table, and makes the table more difficult to modify.

More to the real point: The "n/a"s have been there for a long time. I have to assume there was a reason why whoever put them there did NOT do what you're suggesting. Perhaps there is info in the talk page archives here. In any case, please wait for answers from people who maintain this stuff. Jeh (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think that it would make the table easier to modify because if say…Template:Uw-vandalism3 was moved to Template:Uw-vandalizing3, it would only need to be changed once.

Do you know which specific users have been tasked with maintaining this. If so, have you contacted any of them? The N^th User I have no ideas for what to put here. Care to differ or discuss? 02:06, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's mentioned right near the top of the page. Please note that there is WP:NODEADLINE. Jeh (talk) 05:12, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New warning template(s) for addition of random characters?

Basically, I'm suggesting templatafying this example, which I typed by hand instead of substituting a template. Care to differ or discuss with me? The N^th User 03:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like that is covered by "test edits"? If it were to be added as a new template I think it should be "stray characters", not random, because often in these cases it's not random. And it could invite the user to read instructions for new editors. —DIYeditor (talk) 03:49, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Care to differ or discuss with me? The N^th User 03:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like it’s already covered by either disruptive editing or plain old vandalism. I don’t see a need to start micro-parsing what kind of disruptive editing a person is doing, if they add random gibberish to an article, they know they aren’t helping. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Originally I was going to say test edits, vandalism or disruptive editing but I think the last two have an apparent intent whereas what was cited here, and is often the case with these stray character/gibberish situations, is that it looks like the user just didn't know how to edit or what appropriate changes would be. What usually seems to have happened is that the user got the edit box with a bunch of source code in it, started typing somewhere with some not-entirely-apparent goal in mind, and ended up with garbage. In the spirit of not biting newbies I think the relevant template could go further in directing them to help pages. —DIYeditor (talk) 05:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no clear intent of vandalism do we really need to leave a "warning" at all? Jeh (talk) 17:43, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New Template Suggestion: Use of another Wikipedia article as a source

Recently, I've come across a few edits where a new editor or IP tries to adds a source, but the source is to another Wikipedia article, like this. I couldn't find a pre-written template explaining why they shouldn't do that, so I wrote them an explanation myself, but it seems like we could use a better, official template for the issue. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't object to such a template, especially if it could be incorporated into Twinkle. Maybe just a single-level notification versus multi-tier; I don't think I've ever had to issue multiples for this, and if I did, it would likely fall under disruptive editing in any case. DonIago (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with the need for such a Template. We do need to make it clear that this applies to Wikipedias in other languages too. - BilCat (talk) 17:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe one generally about unreliable sources, mentioning self-published and user-contributed material like wikis (including Wikipedia)... After a quick look I see a warning about unsourced content, but not one about unreliable sources. —Paleo Neonate – 18:04, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually {{uw-unsourced1}} and its successors say "you didn't provide a reliable source", so it would be possible to use this with the Additional text parameter to add something like "Sorry, we don't consider other Wikipedia articles to be a reliable source: please see this page for more explanation": Noyster (talk), 18:29, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It would still be helpful to have a dedicated template for the issue to avoid having to type additional text, for various reasons. - BilCat (talk) 18:44, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a good idea. If there's more consensus I'll make the template. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnAwesomeArticleEditor (talk • contribs) 16:39, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NOR1 and others perhaps overly-welcoming?

Template:uw-nor1 currently begins with "Welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, but we cannot accept original research..." I think it's a little sloppy that we have the word 'welcome' twice in five words. Any support for changing the following sentence to simply read "We appreciate your contributions..."?

Not sure how many other templates may currently have the same issue, but would there be support for updating any others in this manner as well? DonIago (talk) 04:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None of these template messages should have "Welcome to Wikipedia" on them. Every talk page should have a 'welcome message' template added at the top (graphical is my preference), at least in the beginning. If anyone goes to a talk page to post a template warning and there is not 'welcome' message, then they should add one. (I always do) I actually think this should be written into the guidelines, or perhaps just have it so that anytime a new account makes it's first edit, the talk page automatically has a welcome message added to it. I think it would be beneficial to both the new user and the project. Also, IP user talk pages often have the 'shared IP' template added, which is another welcome message. So, no... these messages don't need to say 'welcome'. (my .02¢) - ^theWOLFchild 08:05, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this could be incorporated into Twinkle's logic? DonIago (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If it's built into TW then there should be an opt-out checkmark. When the only edit history is several instances of clearly intended vandalism, or worse, "welcome" is inappropriate. Revert, Block, Ignore. Jeh (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support. There are cases where the user isn't a newbie but L1 is appropriate. I'd like to see this change made (or I could do it myself — wp:Be bold.) —AnAwesomeArticleEditor (talk
contribs) 21:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeh: When the only edit history is several instances of clearly intended vandalism, or worse, "welcome" is inappropriate. - Completely disagree. By adding the 'welcome' template, it shows we've made an effort to inform, and maybe even convert, a would-be vandal. At the very least, it eliminates the excuse "I didn't know", which some very pro-AGF admins buy from time to time. And, that's just for registered accounts. 'Welcome' templates are even more crucial for IP accounts because there could be, and often is, multiple users on the others end. One might be a vandal, but the next guy could be someone completely inexperienced, but well-intended, that could obviously benefit from the 'welcome' message and all the included links. - ^theWOLFchild 22:57, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]