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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by L235 (talk | contribs) at 02:55, 8 February 2017 (→Motion: NorthBySouthBaranof: enact). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Case name Closed
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Request name Motions  Case Posted
Clarification request: Article titles and capitalisation Motion (orig. case) 16 January 2017
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Requests for clarification and amendment


Clarification request: Article titles and capitalisation

Initiated by SMcCandlish at 15:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Article titles and capitalisation arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

This isn't about any parties in particular. While Thryduulf is mentioned (and pinged), I make no allegations about the admin's judgement or actions (I agree with his scope determination, though not with his desire to apply it to the party at the ANI in question.)

Statement by SMcCandlish

Please clarify whether WP:ARBATC's discretionary sanctions rule (which may need to be clarified) applies to all discussions about "the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy, broadly construed" including WP:Requested moves discussions or not. I think that they must, since these are the distributed locus of the vast majority of title and style disputes on Wikipedia, as well as of most of the aspersions cast and other incivility about those things. The majority of {{DS/alert|at}} templates I've delivered have been in response to AGF, NPA, CIVIL, and ASPERSIONS problems in RMs.

Arb Thryduulf at ANI very recently said he would, if not INVOLVED, have discretionarily sanctioned someone for alleged RM-related disruption, under ARBATC specifically. However, I'm also aware of at least one previous case or ARCA in which it was strongly argued but perhaps not formally decided that RM was somehow exempt from ARBATC.[a] I would urge that ARBATC's broad construal of scope include RM, or there was little point in enacting it. There's very little disputation that would trigger ARBATC at places like WT:AT or WP:MOS, and only very sporadically about article content, but almost daily about moves. If anything, that problem has notably worsened over the last two years, probably emboldened by lack of DS enforcement, even as "style" dispute has receded elsewhere, system-wide. While a large proportion of requested moves involve a "style" matter (WP:MOS-connected or not), even those that don't – about things like WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, disambiguation, WP:CONCISE, etc. – are still within the WP:AT remit. I.e., if it's at RM, it is about "article titles policy, broadly construed" by definition (and also often about the MoS).

The confusion arises because the exact wording is unfortunate, and easily WP:GAMEd: "Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages related to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy, broadly construed." The gaming is that while WP:RM per se is obviously within the scope of article titles policy, the RM discussions themselves take place on individual article (or non-article) talk pages, and they aren't technically "pages related to" AT or MoS. The intent of the provision was clearly to curtail style-and-title conflict, and it fails to do this as long as it is actively gameable as inapplicable to nasty behavior in RMs, or (more often) admins are uncertain they can enforce the DS in an RM discussion and so do nothing, or perhaps wag a finger. I rely on our principle (mentioned at GAMING, WP:LAWYER, WP:CONSENSUS, and I think WP:PROCESS and WP:POLICY) that WP's rules are interpreted and intended to be interpreted as to their intent and spirit, and their role in the project as facilitators of getting the work done, not with any eye to finding loopholes and escape clauses to exploit. There seems no "danger" in clarifying that the scope of the DS includes RM discussions, since everyone gets at least one {{Ds/alert}} before DS can apply to them anyway. I.e., anyone being a WP:JERK in RM gets away with it at least once until brought up to speed that it's not acceptable. And the behaviors in question aren't acceptable anyway, per the policies and behavioral guidelines the DS would be used to enforce.

The problem can be fixed by amending "all pages related to" to "all discussions related to". This would also have the side benefit of curtailing ARBATC-scope verbal abuse in user talk, ANI, and other venues, where it is also frequent. I believe that a great deal of title-and-style strife will evaporate, replaced by civil, reasoned discussion that focuses on policy and sources instead of personalities and WP:GREATWRONGS / WP:TRUTH grandstanding, if civility policies are more actively enforced in RMs. All it takes is a one-word, common-sense amendment. It would also be more consistent with other DS cases, which don't have special exemptions for RM or any other particular forum, but apply to the topic generally.

  1. ^ I believe it was in a request that was declined and thus not archived as part of a case page, so I'm not sure how to find it.

Responses to commenters

@Andrew Dingley: The fact that an admin's DS-related comment in a particular case conflicts with previous admin comments in the other direction is why I seek clarification is neither here nor there. Your conspiracy theory cannot possibly be true; while I agree with Dicklyon about many things, we disagree about others. I'm seeking clear applicability of DS to RM given doubts about the matter, even though an admin in question wanted to apply them to a person you presume to be my lock-step ally. All of this has been long on my mind, since reading the ARCA request that RGloucester re-identified; recent events simply bring it to mind afresh. Instead of making up fantasies about my motives without any evidence, actually read what I've written and take it at face value. PS: You complaining about and misinterpreting a routine notice isn't other editors accusing me of harassment [that entire thread was hatted quite rapidly, too].  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:38, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Exemplo347: It has nothing to do with you either, but with a conflict between what Thryduulf has said and what was said in the ARCA that RGloucester dug up [and various other admins' conflicting interpretations]. This couldn't be about you since no DS would be applying to you for anything you've posted, those things having been posted before you received a Ds/alert. As I said, the majority of the uncivil style/titles disputation is at RM not elsewhere, and the majority of Ds/alerts I leave relate to them. Not everything is about you.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:41, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@BMK: I'm not making a complaint, against anyone [I'm studiously avoiding doing so; I don't even expect Thruduulf to recuse, but to give his views about why DS should apply to RM]. I'm asking for a scope clarification, because this question of ARBATC's actual scope keeps coming up for several years now, and different answers keep being given, including by Arbs. The ANI being referred to simply reminded me that this needs to be settled one way or the other. I'm really not very devious. I would think this is pretty obvious after over a decade here. I'm very direct and just call it like I see it, without much regard for "wikipolitics" (in fact, I like to short-circuit wikipoliticking as much as possible, because I think it's corrosive to the community and project, increasingly so as the editorial and admin pools condense. Or you can continue to make assumptions about my motives.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  07:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Calton: Mischaracterizing editors who disagree with you as like unto religious zealots is precisely the kind of personalization of style disputes that WP:ARBATC#All parties reminded is intended to address. Update: So was your "I feel pretty safe in ignoring anything you say as being wrong, self-serving, or intellectually dishonest" assumption of bad faith [1]. Your response here, again indicating a false belief that {{Ds/alert}} is a threat/warning about misconduct, not a notice of DS scope applicability, just proves my point further at WT:ARBCOM#Please fix the wording of Template:Ds/alert.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:30, 17 January 2017 (UTC) Updated 16:47, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Dicklyon: Agreed, though I'm primarily concerned about more unicvil statements that most of those quotes (e.g. referring to other editors as "obnoxious and ... twatty", "idiots", "fanatical enforcers", plus comments like "I don't give a shiny shit about civility when it comes to people like you"). This kind of behavior is common across all "style" disputes (MOS, AT, infoboxes, citation formatting, etc.), and would not be tolerated if it were about Palestine or GMOs or race.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  18:34, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: Sorry, I have not kept track of who's on or off ArbCom lately. :-) I generally agree strongly with your interpretation, yet ask you the same question I asked Euryalus, below. ARBATC is ARBATC, not "ARBMOS". Nothing has ever limited to the scope of ARBATC to MoS discussions and doing so here would actually be a much more major change in ARBATC scope and interpretation than applying ARBATC (to its full AT and/or MOS-related scope) regardless of venue including RM, as I've requested, per "broadly construed". While MoS-related incivility was mostly what I've been thinking of, people sometimes cross the line about other AT-related stuff, especially PRIMARY and disambiguation squabbles (the more the topic in question attracts fannishness, the higher the likelihood of hostile territorialism).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  05:19, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Responses to Arbs

@Newyorkbrad: I agree the level of disputation/striving is much greater at ANI, especially given the frequency with which it involves new editors (RM rarely does). But the level of incivility of a very predictable and consistent and continually ongoing kind, from particular parties, is much more apparent at RM, and has been on the increase for some time, turning into a sort of "this guideline will be applied over my dead body", RM-after-RM-after-RM tendentiousness. It could be another ArbCom case, but that would seem like a bunch of pointless drama if one one-word change to the original decision could permit admins to just deal with it at AE.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:47, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Drmies: I'm loath to provide example diffs, because the kind I have in mind – in the AGF/CIVIL/NPA/ASPERSIONS vein especially, like labelling other editors "obsessive nutters" and implying various specific destructive or unhinged motives to them – would essentially be seen as trying to make disciplinary cases against specific editors (and might be likely to turn into them whether that were my intent or not). If I'd thought that route would be productive, I would have just opened an RfARB and named a bunch of parties [including all of the non-Arbs who have commented here so far as of 16:52, 17 January 2017 (UTC)]. I did consider it, but it seemed likely to generate heat without light.[reply]

@Euryalus: Why would that MoS line be drawn, when ARBATC is about disputes involving the article titles policy or the MoS (both are not required at once)? RM's are always about article titles, so they would always be under the "AT" in ARBATC. The original case had as much to do with MoS-unrelated AT conflict as MoS. The only block I've ever received was an ARBATC DS action for alleged disruption of RM a few years ago. So, DS have definitely been applied to RM before.
[I dispute the allegation behind the block, made by an admin who did not look into the background of the matter and just picked one side to muzzle – but the block was so short it was not effectively appealable; by the time AN concluded I had to refile at AE or ARCA, it was too late. The moves under discussion later went the way I had proposed. Later, the same admin tried to topic ban me, again under ARBATC, and again to silence one side of an equally heated debate, and derailed an ongoing ANEW in the process; AN retroactively voided his action, and the report I'd been making at ANEW was later taken seriously. Same admin was RfARBed around this time last year, with more complainants than I've ever seen with grievances against a single admin, though action was not taken at that time, on a technicality.]
I would like to have that block declared invalid if ARBATC is held to not apply to RM, since that "scarlet letter" has repeatedly been held against me in a punitive fashion. PS: I agree that different regimes of DS should be normalized into something consistent.

Newyorkbrad: If the onus is on me as the requester to make the case for this "expansion" (in my view, clarification) of the scope, I would add to what I've said already:

  • The gist of the concerns, as expressed by someone above (and it seems consistent with comments in the old ARCA) is a "surprise ArbCom sanction" and "effectively plac[ing] thousands of pages under an ArbCom sanction". But that's doubly inaccurate.
    • There's nothing "surprise" about it if you must receive a Ds/alert before any DS can be applied; and AE tends not to act in applying DS after such a warning anyway, unless the case is egregious or it's a multi-time repeat problem after the Ds/alert. The number of editors likely to be affected by DS would probably be countable on a single hand, even a few years later, but the strife level should drop notably just from AE issuing a few admonitions.
    • It would not be placing "pages" under DS; this would have no effect on any discussion on any talk page unless that discussion in particular were a) about article titles or the MoS and b) rife with disruptive or uncivil behavior (which are against policy to begin with).
  • One could stipulate that DS/alerts delivered before the scope clarification don't count (though this would be inconsistent with a previous ARCA decision that these notices cannot be rescinded or invalidated because they are just notices of scope, not conduct accusations or warnings).
  • Finally, "broadly construed" has no applicable meaning if ARBATC is held to apply only to discussions at WT:AT, WT:MOS and the talk pages other naming convention and MoS sub-guidelines; that's narrowly construed by definition. The clear intent of that wording was to construe the scope as covering title and style discussions broadly. Even if I'm misreading the original intent, it seems obvious that extending, if you like, the scope to AT/MoS "discussions", rather than "pages", would have a civility-reinforcing effect at little if any cost.

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:25, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Opabinia regalis: So, what, the current roiling pot of title- and style-related incivility and disruptive battlegrounding is going to continue forever, and worsen when people realize they're immune to DS if they do it at RM or otherwise away from WT:AT and WT:MOS? Are we supposed to open a new RfARB every time?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:56, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Andy Dingley

Of course this isn't "not about any parties in particular", it's a direct reaction to an ANI thread, WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Page move ban, seeking a TBAN on Dicklyon (talk · contribs) for disruptive and over-simplistic pushing of a style guide over objectively sourced external uses with capitalisation. SMcCandlish's own behaviour and harassment of other editors has been questioned in the same thread. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RGloucester

The relevant past ARCA request that SMcCandlish said he could not find is here. The conclusion there was that these DS only apply to guideline and policy pages related to the MOS and AT. RGloucester — ☎ 18:42, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • To the honourable members of the Arbitration Committee: Now that various individual arbitrators have stated a position on this matter, and given that there seem to be mixed messages apparent in their responses, perhaps the Committee could decide the scope of these sanctions together, with clarity, and publish an official clarification in the form of a motion. As it is now, it is quite clear that everyone has a different definition of how these sanctions should apply. That type of ambiguity should not be present in a DS regime. It isn't fair to editors, nor to administrators who must attempt to enforce such sanctions. I'm asking this with sincerity. The reason this issue has come up again is because the last clarification request, which I submitted, was essentially ignored. If the DS regime is meant to apply only to policy/guideline-type pages in the project space, then publish a motion to that effect. Likewise, if the scope is different, and includes RM discussions or whatever. Please do this, for the good of the encylopaedia. RGloucester — ☎ 19:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said above, it would be greatly appreciated by everyone if the Committee would pass a formal motion of clarification so that the scope of these sanctions is clear to all parties. This doesn't seem like a particularly complex matter, and it is one that only the Committee can address. Please do so. Letting this languish like the last clarification motion will only lead to further submissions at ARCA. RGloucester — ☎ 17:42, 30 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Exemplo347

I believe this to be in response to something I said to SMcCandlish, when he gave me an ArbCom notice for a page that was not under any ArbCom sanction and I told him I'd be ignoring it on that basis. I'm glad to see, from reading the relevant discussion, that the interpretation isn't as broad as SMcCandlish thinks it is - it would have effectively placed thousands of pages under an ArbCom sanction without any justification. I'd like to call upon SMcCandlish to remove any ArbCom notices he has mistakenly posted on user talk pages, and he should leave apologies in their place. Regards Exemplo347 (talk)

Further note: Interpreting the decision as suggested above by SMcCandlish would involve a lot more than just "changing one word" - like I've said, it will affect thousands of pages, putting every single discussion that involves any Manual of Style related issue under some sort of surprise ArbCom sanction that can be deployed by editors determined to press home their point. It will be a massive, sweeping change if it is decided that the ArbCom decision really IS that wide. This definitely isn't a simple case of changing a few words and sending us on our way. Exemplo347 (talk) 22:34, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to be a huge loophole that should be closed definitively. If a page is under an ArbCom sanction it should be correctly labelled on its talk page, and those that aren't marked as such should be implicitly not seen as being under ArbCom sanctions. Leaving it up to the interpretation of editors clearly isn't working. Exemplo347 (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question So, is this issue going to be allowed to stagnate? There's a loophole that you could fly a 747 through & it needs to be rectified - it's no exaggeration to say that there could be hundreds of talk page discussions affected by an unintended, wide ranging scope that doesn't match any other ArbCom-related issue. Exemplo347 (talk) 19:37, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

A couple of very quick points:

  • SMcandlish's inquiry is clearly not a general one, but is obviously related to this ANI complaint about Dicklyon, in which SmCandlish has been active;
  • The complaint against Dicklyon centers around an issue of capitalization, which is most definitely a MoS issue, and is specifically related to Dicklyon making controversial changes without using the RM process designed for such changes;
  • This appears to me to be, as Andy Dingely wrote on AN/I, a case of SMcCandlish inappropriately forum shopping. I would urge that this complaint be shut down in favor of the AN/I complaint coming to fruition. If, at that time, SMcCandlish wishes to open a further complaint elsewhere, that would be fine. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:55, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Calton

Based on this ludicrous DIscretionary Sanctions warning that User:SMcCandlish left in response to this edit, I'd say that it's not just forum-shopping, but a lack of actual understanding of discretionary sanctions in general (and of this one in particular) which should lead to this request being rejected and User:SMcCandlish trouted with all due speed. --Calton | Talk 10:57, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the fifth item Dicklyon quotes is mine. I also notice that he doesn't mention that it's a direct echo of SMcandlish's own rant, I have to wonder just what the hell it takes before it sinks in that WP has its own style manual, title policy, and naming conventions (and history of precedent in working out their interaction). How many chest-beating, territorial threat displays have to have cold water dumped on them... But I'm guessing some rants are more equal than others and are A-OK. --Calton | Talk 00:40, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dicklyon

I don't know if the DS was intended to apply to discussions invoking anti-MOS rants, but if so then the personalization and MOS-related mud slinging in the linked AN/I case would appear to make the warning relevent to participants who attacked me and the MOS as a unit:

  • The MOS:CAPS (and MOS:everything else) army have driven enough editors who were far more productive than them away from Wikipedia
  • Dicklyon just doesn't see this, he thinks all text strings must conform to some arbitrary MOS rule, no matter the context or consensus.
  • I agree with Black Kite's impressions regarding the negative effect of the overly-pedantic MOS editors.
  • that this thread exists is reason enough to show that Dicklyon's behaviour is disruptive
  • ... simply a case of blindly following MOS (almost always a bad thing), ...
  • I have to wonder when it will sink in that the MOS is a guideline and not a religious doctrine and that people like you and Dicklyon aren't its High Priests and Defenders of the Faith?
  • it's high time that admins start to block editors who attempt to enforce MOS guidelines as if they were mandatory, which they are not

This was all posted as alternatives to saying anything that I actually did that was controversial, which I have repeatedly asked for there. It is as if some set of editors think that changes that bring things into closer conformity with the MOS are inherently controversial, even if very few get challenged. The inability of my accusers to say what edits of mine they would consider controversial, and this resort to MOS bashing instead, is rather infuriating, and I think that SMcCandlish meant to get them to think about that, even if he denies the warning was placed in response to any specific posts. Dicklyon (talk) 16:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Calton on the fifth one (which is now the sixth one since I added one): yes some MOS-related rants are more equal than others. These are ones that "attacked me and the MOS as a unit", as I said above. There was no call for you to respond to SMcCandlish's by attacking me with yours, even if his was meant to defend me. I have made no pretense of being anything like a "High Priest and Defenders of the Faith", and consider your comment a baseless slur, which matters a lot to me since it was in an AN/I section about me. It appears that you had no actual beef with me, but decided to attack me anyway, personally. That's why I listed your remark here. Dicklyon (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf (re article titles)

Firstly a quick clarification: I'm not an arbitrator, only a former one (and the relevant case here predates my time on the Committee). Also the ping didn't work (for whatever reason).

It has been my impression that discussions related to the manual of style, in whatever venue, are covered by the ARBATC DS authorisation, and that at least one editor has been previously sanctioned regarding their editing of requested moves (possibly Born2cycle but I don't have time to check right now). This I think would tally with Euryalus's feelings that the DS apply to RM discussions where the manual of style is a principle issue (e.g. whether railway line articles should be at "X Line" or "X line" per WP:MOSCAPS) but not to move discussions for other reasons (e.g. that currently happening at Talk:Revolution (Beatles song)). Thryduulf (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Opabinia Regalis: Determining the scope is very easy - if the rationale given for the move is to conform to a MoS guideline (often, but not exclusively, capitalisation) or the manual of style guidelines are used as a rationale to oppose a proposed move then it is within the scope of the DS. Communicating this should be very simple - (a) notify the MoS regulars via MoS talk page post(s), and (b) notify the participants of the discussions where it is relevant, most easily by a template similar to the ones that are placed on article pages. I do not see how this would be a massive expansion in either scope or intended scope.
@all arbitrators: Given though that we have arbitrators coming to exactly opposite interpretations of what the intent was and the scope currently is, I have to echo RGloucester's call for a formal clarification motion. Thryduulf (talk) 01:39, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Opabinia regalis: just fixing the ping. Thryduulf (talk) 01:40, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to have stalled a bit, so please could we have a formal clarification about what the scope actually is - this section has some pretty clear evidence that it is needed. Thryduulf (talk) 02:02, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Article titles and capitalisation: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Article titles and capitalisation: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I've just taken a look at the proposed decision page in the original case (which is where arbitrators comment on the principles, findings, and remedies as they cast their votes), and it appears clear that the intent at the time of the case was to apply DS to discussions relating to the policy and guidelines pages themselves, not to individual article and talk pages. The specific question of whether the DS would apply to a move request discussion was not raised or considered. These DS have been in place for almost five years and I'd be interested in whether they have been invoked in that context before, but from what has been posted so far it looks like the answer is no. Whether the scope of the DS should be extended to include every RM discussion is a different question, and the burden of persuasion is on those seeking the change. I'm aware from various AN/ANI threads that there have been flare-ups in this area, including at least one that is ongoing, but would one say that the typical contested RM discussion is more contentious than, say, the typical contested deletion discussion? Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:29, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading over the PD I see NYB's point, and I think it's in the spirit of the decision to have DS apply to discussions. What's interesting in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article_titles_and_capitalisation/Proposed_decision#Discretionary_sanctions is a short bit of discussion between AGK and Courcelles, though that didn't extend into the wording that's being discussed here. I've seen a few RM discussions in the last years, and none that I recall were derailed or devolved into chaos and incivility because of these specific concerns--but that may not mean much. I do not in principle disagree with the proposal (or a similar proposal) though I am interested in seeing just a few examples to prove the need for it. Drmies (talk) 23:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • From a reading of Courcelles' comment at the PD, and also from what is hopefully a commonsense interpretation, the DS seem intended to apply to applicable discussions where MOS issues were the central theme. In this instance the DS would apply to an RM discussion only where the principal issue in that discussion was directly related to the MOS. The DS would not apply to other RM discussions, akin to the way topic bans apply to parts of articles directly related to that topic, but not necessarily to every other part of the same article. That's an interpretation for this ARCA; on a related note we will one day need to consider the advisability of so many DS regimes, collectively applied to so many WP pages. -- Euryalus (talk) 04:38, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • My take is that DS would apply if the crux of the issue with the name change of an article was directly related to capitalization. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm. I expected this to be an obvious one - it seems fairly clear to me that the intended scope was discussions on the MOS pages (and related policies, etc), not discussions about applications of the MOS in individual cases. I think the latter interpretation would vastly expand the scope of DS in a way that is nearly impossible to apply objectively (how do you decide when a discussion is "directly" related?) and similarly difficult to communicate to editors who are not regular participants in the RM process. Providing such an expansion as a de facto response to a specific incident involving a specific editor would be an overreaction. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking back at the workshop, it appears Guerillero introduced the central language around this remedy and it was intended to prevent "MOS pages from being a battleground". On the PD talk, AGK commented, "the reference to "MOS" is a drafting error; when we say MOS, we mean WP:TITLE". The wording wasn't corrected to make this distinction, so it was either expanded to encompass and effectively seek to counter a wide range of MOS incidents, or it was simply missed. As it's written now, it states all MOS pages and WP:TITLE. I would say this ambiguity still narrows it down to the Wikipedia space and principally discussions pages, but whether it's confined to WT:MOS and WT:TITLE was not explicitly expressed. It seems to me, if the nucleus of the RM discussion was MOS or TITLE related, then I can easily see how someone could interpret these DS as being applicable. The fact that MOS is so broad is somewhat troubling because it potentially casts this DS net very wide. Mkdw talk 06:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Opabinia regalis that this should obviously not apply to individual move discussions. Looking at Mkdw's point just above, I interpret this to refer to the MOS with respect to titles and capitalization only. I read "to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy," as a single phrase. If we need to expand this further, we would need to discuss it. In fact, at the AfDs on Infoboxes, we made specific provisions for that part of the MOS. DGG ( talk ) 22:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also don't see this as applicable to move discussions, particularly with no evidence to suggest that there has been a problem related to this PD. Doug Weller talk 15:28, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: Article titles and capitalization

In remedy 4.2 of the 2012 Article titles and capitalisation case, standard discretionary sanctions were authorized for all pages related to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy, broadly construed. By way of clarification, the scope of this remedy refers to discussions about the policies and guidelines mentioned, and does not extend to individual move requests, move reviews, article talk pages, or other venues at which individual article names may be discussed. Disruption in those areas should be handled by normal administrative means.

Support
  1. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  2. This is my understanding of the existing decision. If a pattern emerges of serious problems in these discussions, an amendment request could be filed—but I very sincerely hope that won't be necessary. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:29, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Doug Weller talk 19:06, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This was the intent at the time. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  5. I find it less easy to judge the "intent at the time", but I prefer to play it conservatively and not extend until an amendment is proposed--or, "per NYB". Drmies (talk) 04:54, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  6. DGG ( talk ) 03:41, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  7. In order to move this along. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Abstain
Comments
The comments above seem to be somewhat split, so we might as well just count noses. For my part, I can't really see authorizing DS on this broad of a scale as a de facto response to a specific incident. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3

Initiated by Hijiri88 at 13:35, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Hijiri88

How does the GP work when an IP or new account makes off-topic edits relate to the Arab-Israeli conflict in articles that are not inherently related to the conflict? Is permanent (or even temporary) extended-confirmed protection appropriate?

This came up recently at Arab Jews. I am not sure if my concern technically applies to that article or not, since the article does seem to be related to the Arab-Israeli conflict by definition (even though I recognize that there have been Jews in Arabia for as long as there have been Jews).

But if this hasn't already come up and been formally clarified, it's almost certain to come up at some point.

The discussion on the Arab Jews article involved a number of specific users but I'm not sure if I should name them as "parties" to this ARCA request as I'm asking for general clarification and not asking for sanctions or anything like that.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:35, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I just made two minor tweaks to the article Edward Said before it occurred to me that technically that article is also covered under the GP (it even includes a full sub-section called "Palestinian National Council"). It has been edited by IPs, and probably also new accounts, dozens if not hundreds of times since the GP was put in place, but were these violations? As currently worded, is the GP even technically enforceable? Is putting such a high level of protection on such a broad swath of articles feasible or even desirable? Sorry if these questions have already been answered; I haven't been following this thread. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:27, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BU Rob13

Long story short, this is the "any page" vs. "any edit" issue of the last ARCA which was pushed to the side so as not to omnibus things. Perhaps it's time to make that small change? I would recommend doing the following two things:

  1. Expand the prohibition from "any page" to "any page or edit". Note that just "any edit" leaves a lot of room for interpretation with edits on pages that have substantial information on the conflict but where the edit itself does not, so keeping "any page" in there seems necessary.
  2. Note that extendedconfirmed protection as an arbitration enforcement action is not appropriate for pages that are just victims of occasional off-topic editing. This doesn't necessarily have to be part of the remedy itself, but it should be made plain in the arbitrator opinions below, at the very least. We wouldn't want random BLPs of Israeli or Palestinian individuals to become indefinitely extendedconfirmed protected under this remedy only because a single IP editor makes an off-topic edit about the conflict.

~ Rob13Talk 02:36, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Iazyges

I agree with BU Rob on the any page vs any edit idea. I also think any unrelated page that come to be the subject of vandalism should only go up to semi-protection, unless the volume of vandalism would be enough to merit protection in its own right. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:14, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf (re Palestine-Israel)

If the change is made (I don't have a strong opinion about whether it should) I think it important that Abrcom make it clear the language is that edits made by users not meeting the threshold "can" or "may" be reverted not "must" be reverted. For example a typographical fix, vandalism reversal or unambiguous BLP correction should not be reverted solely because of the person making the edit. Thryduulf (talk) 11:33, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I don't want to see ECP extended to pages where the Arab-Israel topic is not the prime concern of the article, but I would support the suggested change from "any page" to "any page or edit". Probably with the proviso that any editor not reaching 500/30 can be reverted without it being considered edit-warring and that a notice should then be placed on that editor's talk page (whether or not they are an IP) explaining the sanctions. Doug Weller talk 15:47, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still don't like this idea and still haven't seen any evidence that it's necessary. I'd be more inclined to make this change given some examples of cases where IPs or new accounts are disrupting non-PIA-related articles with PIA-related edits in ways that can't reasonably be controlled by normal editing. One or two borderline cases aren't enough justification for such a broad expansion. Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:21, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would support the concept if there was sufficient evidence of a problem. Absent some notable or systemic examples of disruption we don't have enough to justify the change. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:46, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • While I am not opposed in principle to such an extension, I also don't yet see this as warranted, and it might open up Pandora's box with DS used as a bludgeoning device. I much rather trust the judgment of administrators and the community using the regular means. Drmies (talk) 04:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request: GamerGate

Initiated by NorthBySouthBaranof at 07:40, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
GamerGate arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. 4.1) NorthBySouthBaranof (talk · contribs · logs · edit filter log · block log) is indefinitely restricted per the standard topic ban.
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Amend topic ban to topic probation

Statement by NorthBySouthBaranof

I am writing to request that the topic ban imposed upon me in the above case two years ago be reduced to a probation, so that I may demonstrate that I can successfully edit in those areas. In the two years since the sanction was imposed, I have, in good faith, abided by the requirements of the sanction and I have not been subject to any other sanctions for any other reason. Rather, I have accepted the lessons from my experience which led to the arbitration case, I have continued to contribute useful content in a variety of areas and I have continued to uphold fundamental content policies in contentious disputes. I believe that I should have the opportunity to demonstrate that I can productively participate in those topic areas again, and if any issues recur, I accept the consequences that will surely follow.

NYB, I don't intend to leap back into the middle of any fracas. But I would like to be able to productively edit and contribute to articles such as Same-sex marriage in the United States, the Women's March on Washington and the Women's Rights National Historical Park, to name a few, without constantly worrying that I might be violating the terms of a very broad topic ban. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
NYB, as I said, I don't have any intention of hurling myself into past disputes and I'm not going to immediately leap in and make 80,000 edits in the topic space. At some point in the future might I want to fix a typo on the biography of a GamerGate victim, or add some reliably-sourced facts about their current activities? Probably. But as far as I can tell, all those related articles have all been stable for quite some time and I can absolutely promise that I'm not going to run headlong into battle for the sake of battle. I have learned that lesson from the arbitration case and I don't have any interest in being involved in another one. Frankly, my primary reason for this request is to remove the topic ban's Sword of Damocles from over my head, where it has been poised for two years. I do not want to have to constantly wonder if someone's going to leap out of the shadows and drag me into an enforcement proceeding for the sake of causing drama, or use the topic ban as a cudgel in entirely-unrelated issues, as occurred as recently as December. I accept my past mistakes, I have continued to edit productively and I would like the opportunity to demonstrate that those mistakes will not be repeated. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:52, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies, I have tried to stay far away from even the possible fringes of where the ban might be precisely because I have no interest in stoking drama, and the last time I got anywhere remotely near the topic (to do nothing more than submit a poorly-sourced BLP to AFD) someone dragged me into an enforcement action for no reason other than creating drama. As a result, I have no desire to make even the most non-controversial of edits on any article that anyone might remotely interpret as covered by the topic ban until I can do so without looking over my shoulder. Are those articles covered under the topic ban? I don't know, but I'm guessing someone could make an argument that they are, and that's not an battle I have any interest in fighting. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:07, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A current example is Linda Sarsour - she is one of the organizers of the 2017 Women's March, and I began editing that article in good faith several days ago in an effort to ensure sourcing standards and fairness (removing negative claims sourced to blogs, for example); this morning, another user added the "American feminists" category to that article. Am I now prohibited from editing Linda Sarsour under the topic ban, because now she's in a "gender-related disputes" category she wasn't in a week ago? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:05, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sir Joseph: You are misinterpreting it, because I have never suggested any such thing. I will be happy to continue to discuss sourcing issues with you on that appropriate talk page. Thank you. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:48, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beeblebrox

Since I'm here anyway. This case was such a nightmare. I supported restrictions against NBSB at the time and do not believe they were a mistake. That being said, they were hardly the worst actor in this mess and have stayed out of trouble for quite some time. I would support relaxing the restriction. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sir Joseph

I just want to point out that on the Sarsour page, he seems to be implying that a Jewish source is not reliable, merely for it being Jewish. I hope I am misinterpreting that, otherwise I don't think a relaxation of bans is wise considering that we'll just have more drama in the future. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OID, your bias shines through like the beautiful sun. Just one point to correct, it's the Jerusalem Post, not the Jewish Post. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by OID

Ah once again Sir Joseph jumps in where if something could possibly be considered anti-Jewish then it totally must be. What NBSB said was, that the right-wing Daily Thinker and the Daily Caller (which was cited by the Jerusalem Post) was an unacceptable source for extremely defamatory claims against a living person. And to be honest even if the claim had originated with the Post, a quick perusal at BLPN will find that editors in general take a dim view of highly partisan press making extraordinary claims - in this case a Jewish newspaper claiming a Muslim activist has links to Hamas. Really just to add that Sir Joeseph's comments shouldnt be seen as some sort of negative, when NBSB was clearly acting in the best interests of the BLP by removing violating material contributed by a user who had gamed the system to gain Extended Confirmed status in order to edit in the IP area. (Subsequently the NYTimes has discussed the accusations - clearly in the context of what they were, baseless smears/attacks against the subject.) Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:00, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

GamerGate: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

GamerGate: Arbitrator views and discussion

Motion: NorthBySouthBaranof

The topic-ban placed on NorthBySouthBaranof in the GamerGate case is terminated. Discretionary sanctions remain authorized to address any user misconduct in the relevant topic-area.

Enacted: Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 02:55, 8 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support
  1. Per discussion above, including NorthBySouthBaranof's own comments. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:42, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Doug Weller talk 16:23, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Opabinia regalis (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  4. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:04, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Euryalus (talk) 20:04, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 20:42, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Mkdw talk 23:32, 6 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 01:22, 7 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Drmies (talk) 05:34, 7 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Abstain
Comments
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