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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thryduulf (talk | contribs) at 14:59, 31 January 2016 (→‎Statement by Thryduulf: very long answers to the two questions noted as outstanding.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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  4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
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Case name Closed
Venezuelan politics 25 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms none (orig. case) 20 January 2016
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Requests for clarification and amendment

Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms

Initiated by Jytdog at 00:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Jytdog

My user page has had stuff on it about GMOs for a long time. Two sections: User:Jytdog#GMO_stuff and User:Jytdog#Self-initiated_COI_Investigation.

Should I remove one or both of those sections about GMOs from my user page?

I am concerned on the one hand that removing either would be violating the ban since I am editing content about GMOs in Wikipedia; on the other hand I am concerned someone will say that the stuff even being there is a violation and that would be drama.

My judgement would be to remove the first and keep the second, but whatever you say I will do.

Sorry for the bother and also if this inappropriate - I just don't know what to do. Thanks.

Callanecc thanks, I will not touch it, so as not to come close to violating the TBAN. Jytdog (talk) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
hmmmm with the clarification. i want to be in the spirit of the TBAN so I will remove the 1st section. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find TFD's reactions to me at the Bernie Sanders article to be pretty blatant bad faith and totally surprising. His note below is in response to my message to him here where I wrote: "TFD, you have written several things, and are behaving in a way, that violates AGF. Things like this and this are completely out of line and are getting in the way of dealing with content in the Sanders article. Please stop doing that and deal with the actual content proposals. I don't even know what you mean about "discrediting Sanders"."
Please do look at those 2 diffs of his comments. Please note that TFD presents no diffs below where I mention the topic of my ban nor even that sector of the economy. He will not bring any, because he cannot, because I have not.
The relevant section of the Sanders Talk page is here: Talk:Bernie_Sanders#competitiveness. I don't know if the article touches on the topic on my TBAN; nothing I have written in Talk nor in the content nor any sources i have used mention the topic of my TBAN. This is baseless as far as I can see. Jytdog (talk) 21:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • TFD and AlbinoFerret are pushing forward with this. Again, I didn't edit anything about GMOs on his page.
I could see a clear point here and would agree it was a violation, had I edited something about his food policies or commented on them. I didn't and haven't. I could see a weak point if I had added some denigrating content about him. Content about a position he has held strongly for 30 years (namely that the free trade agreements we have signed since NAFTA have hurt american workers) is not denigrating. Not to me. I don't know why TFD feels Sanders' trade policy discredits him and I still don't understand his point. That is his deal. Not mine.
The arguments being made about this, are so weak that they demean the ones making them, and this forum. I understood that Arbcom was a more controlled environment where this kind of weak poison was not allowed to fester. Jytdog (talk) 08:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Several of my hounders have come out to play and I can bring plenty of diffs if desired to show that each of the commenters here (with the exception of TFD whose comments surprised me) have consistently opposed me on drama boards. Comments about what Monsanto may or may not want are irrelevant to the edits I actually made on the Sanders article and what I wrote on Talk there, and are a continuation of the hounding that has beset me for three years now. No finding was made in the arbcom case that my edits violated NPOV nor that I have any conflict of interest (see Findings of fact) and these claims are a continuation of the behaviors that led in part to the Arbcom case. Had I participated in the case I would have shown this hounding behavior clearly and gotten findings of fact and sanctions regarding it. That I didn't, is my loss, and the community's.
I am not a paid editor; I have no COI with regard to the topic from which I am banned. I have no relationship with Monsanto and never have had one.
I anticipated that part of my post-ARBCOM life would include my hounders trying to create yet more drama based on weak arguments like these, in order to try to further restrict the sphere of my editing in Wikipedia, but it is disheartening to see it play out.
In any case, Gandy (who comments below) implemented the edits I wanted to see in the Sanders article about his position on trade (dif) and that is what I was interested in. I will not edit the Sanders articles going forward. Not because it is within my TBAN (although his stance on GMOs would be) but because my hounders apparently cannot bear it and will continue creating this kind of drama if I would, which is good for nobody. So I won't provoke them.
That said, I would like for this request to be decided, and I would like strong warnings given to those who have brought these weak arguments. Jytdog (talk) 15:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC) (adding emphasis. Jytdog (talk) 19:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC))[reply]
about gandy's remark that i am lying, please see this version proposed by me on the Talk page which was completed at 18:22 where I explicitly said i was dropping the wikilink to free trade in the interest of getting the broader content about his position into the article. Gandy completed her revision of the article almost an hour later at 19:10 (dif again). I commented on her revision first here asking for more emphasis on American workers, and then reconsidered a bit later amd here on Talk I said it was fine. So yet more misrepresentation of me. (not to mention her bizarre claim that "Sanders is against fair trade" which nobody including me has ever said - in her haste to denigrate me she misrepresented me, wrote nonsense, and deleted my comments. Here is her dif again)
But this is yet more offtopic hounding drama. I have not violated my topic ban and no one has brought a dif showing i did. Jytdog (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Gandydancer please actually look at the dif where you made your comment - you will see that you indeed deleted some of what I wrote. the dif is here. I know it was an accident. I am not going to get into the rest of it further; i said my piece above and backed it with diffs, and if you actually look at them you will see that you are misrepresenting me. Jytdog (talk) 18:21, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Guy I hear that and that is what I said I would do above. That does not give this complaint merit.
  • AlbinoFerret Your gem at WT:COI which you do not frequent is a case in point. (dif with my response) That comment is as sloppy as the one you made below. I get it that you are still unhappy with things at e-cigs per your lovely exchange here but that is no excuse to go around piling on with lame criticisms. Jytdog (talk) 18:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Albino your comments here and at WT:COI were lame and nothing but carrying on a grudge. You have been doing great with your closing work but you still pile on whenever you can against mainstream health editors, like me. All that stemming from your timeout from e-cigs, which you took in the face of an impending community-imposed ban. Just knock it off already please, as I have asked you before. Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
and about this. ditto. You play the disinterested party but all you are doing here is wikilawyering based on a very very weak initial argument, that the arbs/admins who have commented have already rejected. I won't engage further as this is all more offtopic drama from the main point of the bad request and the arguments badly supporting it, which have no merit. This is all just hounding. Jytdog (talk) 19:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • a last remark back on the heart of TFD's original concern, namely that Sanders is "a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto" and I must have known about that. In the ~ three years or so that I worked on the GMO articles, Sanders' name never came up that I can recall. This is something that is actually falsifiable:
Nothing.
The Vermont law did come up, but only at that high level (like, the state of Vermont passed a labelling law and here is what the law says); I reckon if I went back and read sources about that law Sanders name might be there... but I don't know.
Also, the issue doesn't even reach importance enough to be mentioned in the Bernie Sanders article which summarizes the issues that have been themes of his career - at least not during the brief time I worked on the article. (and yes now that Gandy points it out, I see that it is mentioned in away down in section 9 of Political positions of Bernie Sanders; I worked on section 2 of that article, only.
All that is verifiable on-Wiki.
The following statements are not falsifiable - all you have to go on, is me saying them. If someone asked me to name who the leading opponents of GMO are, Sanders' name would not be one of them - I would name people like Jeremy Rifkin, Vendana Shiva, John Mercola, Seralini... those are names that have come up plenty in the work here in Wikipedia and that I would name. Not Sanders. I had no idea he had any stance on the issue until TFD raised this and I never thought of him as "a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto". TFD allegations just came out of the blue, for me.
Now that TFD has raised this, I see that Sanders does have a stance on this (again, not a stance that is central to his career such that it is mentioned in the main article about him, but yes he has a stance).
In any case as I said above I am not going to edit content about him further to avoid provoking my hounders and creating more drama. And again, I would like the people pushing for this to be warned to not bring poor cases like this going forward. Jytdog (talk) 15:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Gandydancer I have explained in depth and provided diffs. The fact that you could not see that you deleted comments the first time and actually denied it and still have not acknowledged it, and then did it a second time even more dramatically, and said on your Talk page said that you are unable to follow diffs anymore... all these things are not my issues.
But I will try to explain the other issues without diffs.
1) Please actually read the second paragraph of your comments below. Oh hell I was just paste it here.

When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade.

(bolding added)
Three times there, you use the term "fair trade". I made them bold for you in the quoted text. You do not appear to know what that term means. "Fair trade" is the kind of trade policy that Sanders favors (..kind of, it generally means something different than what would be relevant to US trade with say China, but it is close enough for now), compared to "free trade" which has been American trade policy for a few decades now and which Sanders opposes. What you wrote there is la-la land; it is not what I or anybody said, and it reflects either carelessness or a lack of competence in the topic. Yet even when I called your attention to it, you just wrote more nasty things and didn't deal with what you actually wrote, nor with what I actually wrote.
2)' Look what you wrote in the quoted content above about my proposal. If we cut you slack and substitute "fair trade" with "free trade" you are claiming that my proposal used the free standing term, "free trade". Now here is the proposal from the dif above (since you are apparently unable to follow difs):

He has opposed all United States free trade agreements since NAFTA, including the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and the US trade policy under which these agreements were negotiated and signed; he holds that these agreements have benefited large corporations at the expense of American workers and he proposes renegotiating the agreements to better protect American workers.

The free standing term is not there. You misrepresented what I did.
3) below you wrote

Sanders has never said that he is opposed to free trade and there is no RS to make that statement.

- this was a gobsmacker. Again you don't seem to know what you are talking about nor have read any of the relevant sources. See this editorial by him headlined: "So-called 'free trade' policies hurt US workers every time we pass them". It is clear as day that Sanders opposes what everyone calls free trade. If your point is that he only uses the term with quotes ("free trade") - well that is is just rhetoric like calling the estate tax a "death tax" and runs dead against WP:COMMONTERM. I have been afraid that this is the source of TFD's opposition to use of the abstract term in the Sanders article - if so, that is really horrific WP editing. But I never went there while I was working on the article, and instead crafted the language above to work around whatever the bizarre opposition was.
This is as clear as I can make it. I am not going to respond further to this. Your question to clarify and offer to take responsibility feels authentic which I appreciate and is why I have responded. Nonetheless your participation here with the others - and focusing on this crap about "free trade" - has just been piling on to what was a dead-duck claim that I violated my TBAN, which has gotten no traction. You added to the circus. The ocean of bad faith here stinks to high heaven. Jytdog (talk) 23:56, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Four Deuces

I do not wish to comment on Jytdog's request but have another question for clarification. Does the topic ban apply to articles about Bernie Sanders?

Sanders is a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto[1] which, as a GMO producer, is one of the articles mentioned in the GMO case. Sanders is the only politician mentioned in March Against Monsanto, another article mentioned in the case. The new trade agreement which Sanders opposes, TPP, prohibits GMO labelling.[2]

Jytdog has recently begun editing this article, for example here and [3]. In the latter edit he added, "He has opposed free trade agreements...."[4] He does not mention that Sanders says it is not a free trade agreement and provides a link to the free trade article. He has not edited articles for any other presidential candidates.

This seems to me to be an example of continuing to edit a subject as closely related to GMO as possible, without overtly crossing the line.

TFD (talk) 21:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the enwiki database shows Jytdog made 93 edits to "March Against Monsanto,"[5] so I assume he is aware of its contents.

While it has been deleted, Jytdog posted, "My comments have been purely focused on Sanders' stances on trade and competitiveness generally and not on any single sector of the economy. (fwiw as he is doing so well I became curious about his positions on the economy and when I read our article on him, I found it to say little to nothing about anything other than economic inequality."[6] The discussion thread started by Jytdog at the Sanders article begins, "I have been wondering what Sanders has to do say about promoting the competitiveness of the American economy and i have found nothing anywhere (not in Wiki nor without)."[7] It is an odd posting from an experienced editor. Normally one would do a little research first and made or recommend the addition of material. The first editor to reply saw it as soapboxing.[8]

By "discrediting Sanders" I was referring to my earlier reply to Jytdog, "we should not link to free trade, because it implies they are free trade in the way it is normally understood." In the first source you added (PBS), TPP was not referred to as a free trade agreement.[9] Nor was it in the second (Punditfact).[10] And in the source already in the article, written by Sanders, he says, "This is not "free trade.""[11] And I pointed out in the talk page, "I note btw that Sanders says these are not free trade agreements, so saying he has voted against all free trade agreements is injecting your personal interpretation."

TFD (talk) 23:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kelapstick:, I agree with AlbinoFerret about the ban "including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics." Sanders introduced the amendment[12] to allow state requirement of GMO labeling. An article in the pro-GMO Genetic Literacy Project (GLP) says, "an example of a politician who still needs to overcome the knee-jerk reflex to be against food biotechnology is Sen. Bernie Sanders. He is chosen here as an example, because his presidential campaign makes him the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs, and because he takes strong positions in favor of science on all issues apart from agricultural biotechnology."[13] The GLP is financed by the Searle Freedom Trust,[14] that supports a number of U.S. conservative thinktanks and organizations that oppose climate change science, state funded health care, etc. The site also says Bernie Sanders (and Hillary Clinton, although here opposition was more recent) oppose the TPP and then says GMO opponents are mistaken in their view that the treaty would prevent GMO labeling.[15] TFD (talk) 04:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jytdog:, it is not that Sanders' trade policy discredits him, but saying he opposes free trade when he has not said that does. It is synthesis: Sanders says he opposes the TPP etc., another source says they are free trade agreements, therefore Sanders opposes free trade agreements. And the restriction on editing articles "about persons involved in [GMO]" would seem to include "the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs." The reasoning is that discrediting anti-GMO advocates discredits anti-GMO advocacy.

These agreements are btw related to GMO, since they allow the export of U.S. GMO grains, and may protect them against GMO labelling, which the GMO industry opposes. The U.S. Grains Council for example says that tariffs on U.S. corn exports will be eliminated. 9[16] 0% of U.S. corn in GMO.

TFD (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kelapstick:, while I appreciate that Sanders is most notable as a politician, he is also notable for his opposition to GMO or, as the GLP says, he is the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs. That meets the criterion of being involved in these topics. He is mentioned in March Against Monsanto and Farmer Assurance Provision (aka "Monsanto Protection Act"). A Google news search of "Bernie Sanders"+"GMO" gets 26,000 results.[17] Among the first of the articles, "Bernie Sanders promises to protect organic farming and denounces Monsanto", "Sanders, Murkowski vow to block appointment of FDA commissioner over GMO salmon, drug prices", "Can Bernie Sanders act like a progressive on GMOs, overcome tribal allegiances, embrace science?" "Hillary vs. Bernie on Frankenfood", "Bernie Sanders claims CBS canceled interview on rBGH after Monsanto threatened lawsuit", "Bernie Sanders Calls Out Monsanto for Killing His GMO Labeling Amendment."

Statement by AlbinoFerret

--kelapstick, but isnt the Locus of the dispute tied to the broadly construed part of the ban? Section 4.2.1 Locus of the dispute says "The dispute centers on pages about genetically modified organisms (GMOs), agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics...." AlbinoFerret 23:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the hounding goes, I watch this page, not because of one editor, but because I have contributed to a few arbocm cases. Thats likely the reason others have made comments here as well. What brought me to this page this last time was the Mystery Wolff section below and I noticed the GMO section above it. All this talk of hounding is just casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Like there is some kind of anti-Jytdog secret cabal just waiting for the chance. Something that many editors who have or had a section on this page seems to add at one point or another when multiple editors see a problem. AlbinoFerret 18:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Callanecc, --kelapstick, Kirill Lokshin, and Doug Weller part of the findings of the GMO case is section 4.3.6 Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility in relation to the locus of this case. With this edit Jytdog has chosen to disregard that warning.[18] and has focused on Me and not content or issues WP:FOC The comments of "lame" and "sloppy" and criticizing my post to another editor (S Marshall) are very troubling considering the warning he received. That this also happens in a section on topic with that warning raises the concern. AlbinoFerret 18:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

pinging kelapstick separately as the first ping was bad and not all the rest again. AlbinoFerret 18:55, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of recognising the problem, he compounds it.[19] AlbinoFerret 19:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Petrarchan47

From what I understood, Jytdog's ban should cover articles on companies like Monsanto, not only GMOs. A glance at the Sanders pages for the word GMO is not sufficient in this case.

Jytdog should not be editing pages of strong advocates for or against Monsanto and GE technology. For this reason, Bernie Sanders' articles should be off limits to Jytdog based on his topic ban.

It is well known that Sanders is a huge thorn* in their side. Consider:

Questions about agribusiness and genetically-modified food are not unusual at Sanders events, but on Saturday night the Vermont senator claimed his criticism of the industry and Monsanto’s objection caused CBS to cancel an interview:
"Monsanto is a very, very powerful corporation. They are one of the leaders in food technology and basically working hard to transform our food system. Let me tell you a funny story, or not so funny. In my state, a great dairy state, we have a lot of dairy cows. There was an effort to put what was called BGH, bovine growth hormone, which is a stimulant that makes cows produce cows more milk but is unhealthy. I was against that.
"I’ll never forget this. I was invited by CBS, not a small company, to appear on television to talk about why I was opposed to bovine growth hormone. CBS then called me up and said, ‘Well, Monsanto is threatening to sue us, so we can’t go on with it.’ They are very powerful."*

Consider too: Bernie on GMOs and the TPP

The TPP Protects Companies like Monsanto....a corporation thus becomes an "Investor State" with rights that supersede governments' (and people's) rights, including the right to label GMOs.

Jytdog should not be editing content related to trade agreements that have a massive, direct impact on Monsanto, the biotech industry and the spread of GM foods.

Request for clarity

  • Doug Weller says: "if an article is not basically about the subject of the topic ban, it can be edited provided that the edits don't touch anything related to the topic ban."
  • (Section 4.2.1) Locus of the dispute: "The dispute centers on pages about genetically modified organisms (GMOs), agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics...."

Please Arbs, clarify for us what you meant by "biographical pages about persons involved in these topics". Could you provide examples of people who would fall into this category?

Could one's prominence in media perhaps play a role in this determination? In other words, Sanders is concerned with many issues (not primarily GMOs), but it cannot be said that his position on Monsanto and GMOs is of no consequence, especially given his power as Senator and potential power as POTUS. I see a line of reasoning forming that to qualify under this topic ban, a bio would need to be solely concerned with the subject's position on GM technology, etc. Is this correct?

Sanders is, according to current polls, a few steps from holding what is commonly described as the most powerful position in the world, and because he is the most prominent and outspoken critic of Monsanto in the United States, as well as an advocate for requiring GM foods labeling, and for small, organic farmers, I can't imagine a bio of someone more fit for Section 4.2.1.

This is what he said in early January:

Sanders believes that the biotech companies are "transforming our agricultural system in a bad way." He says that he stands for the right of the people to know what is in our food (through mandatory GMO labeling that he helped pass in Vermont, an effort that the GMO giants are trying to block through the DARK Act) and supports family-owned and organic agriculture.
And, "We need legislation and efforts designed not to protect factory farming, corporate farming but to protect family-based agriculture" *

So, you've got Jytdog visiting the Sanders page to make POINTy edits and arguments about Monsanto's biggest U.S. critic, and about a trade deal that would prevent GMO labeling. This is not, in your collective view, a transgression of his topic ban?

  • Arbs, please give us examples of bios addressed in section 4.2.1 More than one example would be preferable, so that we can get an idea of the type of person you were thinking of, and please make sure one of the examples is an American (I am not pushing for Sanders' to be included, but simply cannot imagine who you all are referring to if the bar is so high that he does not qualify). Thanks in advance. pingpingpingping
Interestingly, when Susan Sarandon introduced Bernie last night in Iowa, her short speech included mention of Monsanto.

Statement by David Tornheim

First I agree that Bernie Sanders is at least somewhat related to GMO's because of his unique views compared on GMO's relative to other major candidates, to about the same level as GMO's are related to Agent Orange. Jytdog has show prejudice against anyone he labelled "anti-GMO". On the Bernie Sanders page, he is now into a dispute with Gandydancer an editor who I believe left the GMO pages largely because of Jytdog's behavior, where she says, "this has been a very unpleasant experience" diff. Although Gandydancer said she did not think the T-ban should apply here, IMHO seeing responses like this is a further reason the t-ban should apply to his behavior on this article.

I request that ArbCom to consider this editor's history at ArbCom and on Wikipedia in making its ruling and answering this editor's request, such as his overly aggressive behavior at COI that was brought to ArbCom's attention and lead to admonishment by one of the ArbCom members: here (that comment refers to this Statement by Risker and this mass deletion of mall articles over a supposed COI.) I similarly pointed out double-standards in this editor's behavior with regards to COI here at the GMO Arbitration. And now we have a new COI problem for this editor [20], who thought it appropriate to edit the COI guideline when questions were raised about his COI here. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:27, 22 January 2016 (UTC) (revised 13:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC))[reply]

Statement by Gandydancer

Some editors have presented some very interesting information above and now I can see why Monsanto would be very eager to discredit Sanders. BTW, I note below it is said, "There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article." Actually there is a section on GMO labeling in his positions article. Gandydancer (talk) 15:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade. Gandydancer (talk) 16:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting just plain silly. I said "[Jytdog] knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade." He subtracts what he calls a bizarre claim that I made "Sanders is against fair trade" from this and calls it nonsense that nobody ever said, which is of course true, except that nobody ever said it, including me. Let's complicate some more--he says that I deleted and misrepresented him--though I did neither. This is not complicated, it is very simple: The article is about Sanders life and his political accomplishments and opinions. We are abbreviating Sanders's views on trade agreements to just one or a few sentences. Sanders has never said that he is opposed to free trade and there is no RS to make that statement. If we had more space to work with it could be explained that Sanders does not consider the trade deals in question to be "free" and he always refers to them as "so called free" or similar. So its been best, in order to keep things brief, to just say, "Sanders has opposed NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR, and PPT." Not complicated at all. This was brought up repeatedly on the talk page but Jytdog just went doggedly along not hearing it, refusing to discuss it, and now here calling it nonsense. Gandydancer (talk) 15:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Jytdog I have looked at the difs you provided several times and I can't figure out what you mean. Perhaps you could just tell me what I deleted rather than use a dif.Gandydancer (talk) 12:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jytdog: I really do want to clear up the statement where you said, "So yet more misrepresentation of me. (not to mention her bizarre claim that "Sanders is against fair trade" which nobody including me has ever said - in her haste to denigrate me she misrepresented me, wrote nonsense, and deleted my comments." I will gladly accept responsibility but I don't know what I did unless you will tell me. Gandydancer (talk) 22:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jytdog: Ah, I see - I used the term "fair trade" three times when I meant "free trade". It is true that the term "fair trade" had not been used on the article talk page by me, or you, or anybody. I spoke at length on free trade on the article talk page and I think that most people would tend to agree that I do seem to be aware of what it means. You may accept that I did follow your difs and try to understand our differences while never noting my mistake, or you can think I'm incompetent, trying to denigrate, etc. At any rate, I apologize for my mistake. Gandydancer (talk) 15:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JzG

Bernie Sanders has spouted anti-GMO bollocks, so that requires care on Jytdog's part. Frankly if I were him I would leave well alone. There are loads of other articles to edit and enough people who are after Jytdog's blood and will spend their lives dragging every marginal call to this board that it's probably better to stay clear in the interests of a quiet life. Guy (Help!) 17:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SMcCandlish

[Univolved as far as I recall.] I haven't dug into the exact nature of the editor's participation and am not comfortable projecting any ideas about whether Jytdog is or should be aware of a Sanders–GMO connection (I have faith that ArbCom is competent to apply a DUCK/SPADE analysis, COMMONSENSE, etc.). I think there's a general risk here, with multiple levels:

  • For a public figure, notable for anything other than their connection to the topic-ban subject, it's not a sure bet that any editor involved in the general topic is necessarily aware of the bio subject's connection to that topic. A legislator may have voted or debated on hundreds of issues in the same legislative session.
  • For such a figure, the connection to the topic will generally be tenuous, unless they were heavily involved. It shouldn't be the result of a topic ban to deal with disruption in a general topic, that it effectively entrap the user if a bio incidentally turns out to have a connection to the verboten topic. Nor should it be the goal of a topic ban to prevent the editor from constructively working on any articles that are only tenuously connected to the TB topic, as long as they stay away from material in the bio or whatever that relates to the TB topic, and don't try to PoV skew the article (e.g. "I can't make them look bad on this, so I'll make them look bad on that").
  • A major if not primary aspect of ARBCOM and AE these days is enforcement of various (including discretionary) sanctions for WP:Casting aspersions, including assumptions of bad faith without serious evidence. The presumption an editor with a TB in a topic is surely violating the TB by editing a bio with some vague connection to the TB topic would appear to be the exact kind of aspersion-casting that is forbidden.
  • Too vague an approach here could also provide untoward WP:GAMING opportunities for someone who wants to get the party subject to the TB into even more trouble.

I don't raise any of this pro or con the specifics in this case. Frankly, I remain skeptical about the participation on that bio page. But it seems like something to keep an eye on, not something to whip out the noose for.

Regardless of the determination in this case, my point is: Please consider very carefully about this. While ArbCom isn't precedent-bound literally, it's clear that it has leaned more and more toward continuity and consistency between cases in recent years (and I'm pretty sure almost everyone thinks this is a good thing). So, an overbroad approach to this question in this case (even if the result were deserved) could lead to overbroad approaches in later ones, including sanctions that aren't really merited, or just a general chilling effect. Since we use a lot of legal metaphors here, like chilling effect and overbreadth, I suggest that a wiki equivalent of criminal intent needs to be a factor.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

I've been watching this, and I decided to leave this relatively late comment now. I think that the Arbs are getting it right in their replies, so those replies should settle the immediate issues at hand. But I do think that SMcCandlish makes some very good points, that deserve to be reemphasized. I'm seeing a pretty heavy use of aspersions at numerous editors lately, of just the kind of asserting an agenda of editing on behalf of GMO companies, and the editors doing it are getting increasingly clever about wording it in ways that superficially mask the real agenda of casting aspersions. There's one case of it at ANI right now, and it's pretty clear that administrators do not want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. There is a real possibility of ArbCom finding yourselves with something like GMO-2, so I think that you should have that heads-up. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:08, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingofaces43

I originally wasn't going to comment here as I was confident arbs would come to the same conclusion they currently did so far in that it's fine as long as a a topic-banned editor isn't editing an article that's about the topic ban subject or an area of tangential articles. That being said, I do want to echo Tryptofish and say that arbs should keep an eye on who's "out for blood" in recent enforcement cases or clarifications. This is probably the biggest stretch of broadly construed so far by those trying to claim this violated the topic ban. One concern is the hounding of multiple editors by AlbinoFerret as Jytdog described above. I haven't decided if it's best to present that evidence at enforcement or if something like that is better handled at GMO-2 as Trypto mentioned, but just a heads up that there's still a lot of things festering that we just didn't have the time, space, or energy to deal with at the first case. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:21, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shock Brigade Harvester Boris

This crap has gone on long enough. Admins have got to start liberally handing out blocks, bans, or whatever it takes to clean up the GMO cesspit. I have some professional knowledge I'd like to add on the topic (related to the potential for unintended outcrossing by windborne pollen) but don't dare edit the topic because of the utterly toxic atmosphere on anything related to GMOs. Things are only getting worse and the time for half-measures has long passed. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cla68

Excellent troll Jytdog, and I say that as someone who has amused himself early and often trolling self-righteous WP admins and internet "science" activists. Now, I'm off to buy some stock in Monsanto. Cla68 (talk) 17:48, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by DrChrissy

I have another clarification request here. Jytdog and I are both under an interaction ban. Jytdog recently closed a discussion in which I was engaged[21] I am not going to pretend this was a flagrant abuse of the IB, but it seems to me that it is an interaction - possibly of the remotest kind. But, after all, the closure means Jytdog is effectively preventing me from making further posts to that thread. Given that discouraging Jytdog from closing discussions in which I am involved is hardly likely to affect his editing in any significant way, I suggest it might be best if this is avoided in the future. Oh, as a very minor side issue, the discussion also contained some GMO content. It could be construed that Jytdog, by closing the discussion and leaving a comment, is commenting on GMO-related posts. All I am asking is whether Jytdog should in the future avoid closing discussions in which I have been involved - I am not asking for any action to be taken.DrChrissy (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by {other-editor}

Genetically modified organisms: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Genetically modified organisms: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • As far as I'm concerned:
  • Leaving it there as is isn't a TBAN violation - as it was there before your topic ban was imposed.
  • I guess removing it is technically a TBAN violation, but seriously, who cares - given the spirit of the TBAN is to get people to walk away, removing it is really following the 'spirit' of the ban just not the letter (and I strongly doubt anyone would have a problem with you removing things from your user page).
  • Editing/changing it is a TBAN violation since it's not following the letter or the 'spirit' of the TBAN, though blocking for that would probably be a little extreme depending on circumstances.
Regarding the other part of your questions, it's up to you what you remove and what you keep, but your suggestion re removing first section and keeping second section seems reasonable to me. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Jytdog: Just noting that I added the bit in brackets in the 2nd dot point to make it clearer. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Callanecc said with regards to your userpage. The Four Deuces, if none of the content that Jytdog is related to the topic ban, than there is no violation. Regardless of Sanders stance on GMOs. --kelapstick(bainuu) 23:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this the Bernie Sanders question is stretching the limits of broadly construed. There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article. He's not notable as either a pro or anti-GMO activist, he's notable as a politician. So unless the material being edited is directly related to GMOs, the topic ban does not apply. --kelapstick(bainuu) 20:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Callanecc. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • As do I. As for Bernie Sanders, we've always said that if an article is not basically about the subject of the topic ban, it can be edited provided that the edits don't touch anything related to the topic ban. Doug Weller talk 18:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:TBAN pretty much explains it or what doug and callanecc said --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 19:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. What Callanecc and Doug W. said. Drmies (talk) 02:17, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed, they've explained it well. Gamaliel (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Editor conduct in e-cigs articles

Initiated by Mystery Wolff at 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Mystery Wolff

1. Regarding the Arbcom outcome. It states: 

Enforcement of restrictions: 0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.

Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.

2. Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?

3. For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?

4. Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?

5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.

Thank you for your Clarifications in advance. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • 6. What part of discretionary sanctions allow or suggest: "People who are still coming up the learning curve on Wikipedia should stay away from troubled areas." What are the various tiers of editorship? I was previously of the understanding that there was only locking of articles to where you needed to be verified. How is the learning curve graded, and how are editors graduated through the different levels?
Reply to @Thryduulf: This request for clarification is being done generically. It is not being done as a request for modification to the ARB, and I was not involved in the ARB where I am asking the question to. You have not addressed the additional Two questions I have asked, and raise new question by your response.
The question 6, is referring to a policy where editors much have an undefined differentiator than simply following https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Guidance_for_editors I want to know about how the tiers are managed and what is necessary. Because enforcing admins use the phrase I placed, I want to know about it. Its something that all editors on Wikipedia should know about, or that policy of levels of editorship on articles with Discretionary sanctions should be removed. Please talk to that.
on 5, I asked about the rules that are well documented that Enforcing Admins are accountable, and must explain their actions. Its simple, if they choose to refuse to answer questions about their enforcement actions, they are not accountable at all. My reading of the guidelines says its not optional, that it is required.
@Thryduulf: Your new assertion is wrong, and its a wrong reading of the rules. Without the enforcing Admin commenting on the Appeal, its is nearly certain to fail, rather than you misunderstanding that it is beneficial to the appealing editor....because it nearly guarantees the status quo. For an appeal to succeed, a reviewing admin must see a difference, find a difference, to change the Status quo. As you know, often the case win Admin reviews is a process of follow the leader. The process problem is there is no way that the appeal editor has any idea of why the decision was made, and often is not presented with enough information that a review has been done with any level of completeness. You also know that the pejorative of wikilawyering is also abused by admins as a way to stifle the very plea of the appeals itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Role_of_administrators somehow is not being seen as a requirement.
Why is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Expectations_of_administrators not a requirement? Rather, its written as a requirement, but it treated as optional.
If the clarification is a stratified set of tiers of editorship, that's fine, but it need to be part of a process and documented. Otherwise you are left with more and more frequent sanctioning of editors, without those editors being told which edits are the basis. I would appreciate clarification to process in general. These answers are for the whole of the project and not simply a single case. Please focus on process Mystery Wolff (talk) 08:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@In actu: I do not understand your response below, and I did google it. I believe that I am asking for important clarifications to a process that is out of sorts. Its an important process because it one used to close down and restrict editorship to an open project, so checks and balances are important especially with consideration to a process of an Appeal. If editors are not given a fair process, and by fair process I mean that the process if defined AND followed, it will result in an outcome that is a disservice to the entirety of the Wikipedia community. Its well known that the pejorative "wikilawyering" is often used to BITE at editors, and as an excuse to circumvent process, but in an Appeals process, it must be that editors are given a fair hearing. The Closing admin "MUST" explain their actions, and a designated Admin should be responsible for the Appeal as it proceeds. Otherwise a transient random Admin may requested to close it out, out of favor, boredom, or otherwise, without giving the editor a fair hearing. I don't think any Admin can disagree with anything above.
In actu, what I am raising here contradicts that assertion of @Thryduulf:. A. There is a requirement of Admin, and its not optional, its defined as MUST, explain their administrative actions. The template for Appeal, creates a section for the closing Admin to explain their decision. IT IS fundamental to the existing appeals process. If a closing Admin refuses to explain their actions, informally as listed out by the Topic Ban template, Directly to their TALK page, the editor has only one option to bring it to an Appeal. The appeal can only be by a shift of the Status Quo. If no Admins bother to look at the appeal, or address anything in the actual appeal, the status quo remains. If the enforcing Admin refuses to to explain their actions, the result will always be the status quo, and the appeal process is mooted, or gamed.
@In actu: I would also appreciate you responding to the various tiers of editorship on Wikipedia, and how an editor is to move through them. Directions are put out that editors should only edit XYZ articles, and other articles are only appropriate for 123 editors. All of this is undocumented, but it is being used by the AE board itself.
Again I appreciated these needed clarifications to the processes. Mystery Wolff (talk) 20:47, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: Please stop shifting my request for clarification to something it is not. This is not "appeal that appeal to the arbitration committee", or an appeal. Above, I am asking for clarification to process. As the items have not been remarked to, I can not disagree with something that is not there. Please stop personifying and respond to the process questions above or if TLDR for you, allow others to do so. Stop making it about me. Mystery Wolff (talk) 09:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf:, there are two items above which have not been addressed, (5 clarification, and 6). However, I apologize for my error...of drafting them incrementally here.
They are generalized to process and not individual case specific....and I will re-craft them again, and ask them, independent of this. Mystery Wolff (talk) 10:06, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf

In response to Mystery Wolff's followup question, when an appeal is made then uninvolved administrators look at all the information available and decide based on that whether the sanction was appropriate or not. If the blocking administrator does not or cannot (for whatever reason) contribute to the discussion then the other administrators will just not have that information available. They will still be able to examine the logs, the original thread, and all links posted with the appeal and with the original discussion that led to the sanction. If anything, the closing admin not participating is more likely to favour the appealing user as they will not be able to present their case or explain why they chose the action they did that another admin may not have done.

Neither arbcom nor AE is a court and nobody wins or loses based on minor procedural errors - not that there were any in your case. Thryduulf (talk) 12:03, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mystery Wolff: I have explained above what happens if the admin making the initial action does not contribute. That you choose not to believe this does not make it untrue, nor does it make your preferred interpretation correct.
You made your appeal, it and the comments left by other users (including the admin who originally placed the resitrction) were reviewed by uninvolved administrators. Your appeal was declined. You have now chosen to appeal that appeal to the arbitration committee, who have also declined it. You appear to be confusing people disagreeing with you for people not hearing you. Please read Wikipedia:I didn't hear that, and move on. There is nothing to be gained by continuing to beat a dead horse. Thryduulf (talk) 21:14, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What process questions remain outstanding? As far as I can tell, everything has been answered already:
  • Administrators who impose sanctions are encouraged and recommended to take part in any appeal of that sanction, but they are not obliged to - read WP:ADMIN again.
  • That a section of the appeal exists for comments from the admin who imposed it does not create an obligation for them to take part in the appeal.
  • The appeal is judged by uninvolved administrators whether the original admin takes part or not.
  • The appeal is judged based on the evidence presented in the original discussion, the evidence presented in the appeal, and the comments of all users who choose to comment.
  • Appeals made without the input of the imposing administrator can be and have been successful.
Fundamentally you need to read and understand WP:NOTBURO. Thryduulf (talk) 11:35, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.

The closing admin is recommended to make a statement, but is not required to. If they do not comment or answer questions, then all that happens is that their judgement is interpreted based on what was written (by them and others) in the thread that they closed. It does not affect whether the closure was correct or otherwise, and has no bearing on whether the appeal is successful or not. It is very uncommon for a sanction to be overturned on procedural grounds.

What part of discretionary sanctions allow or suggest: "People who are still coming up the learning curve on Wikipedia should stay away from troubled areas." What are the various tiers of editorship? I was previously of the understanding that there was only locking of articles to where you needed to be verified. How is the learning curve graded, and how are editors graduated through the different levels?

"People who are still coming up the learning curve on Wikipedia should stay away from troubled areas." is advice not a sanction. That Wikipedia has a learning curve is a factual statement independent of anything else, and given that the learning curve exists and new editors arrive all the time, there are by definition editors at all points on the curve. The experience of those of us who have been around a long time shows that the learning curve is much easier to scale in a non-contentious area - things happen at a slower pace, meaning the experienced editors there have the time and patience to teach and guide those who are learning rather than firefight to maintain article quality. Experience also shows that editors whose sole focus when starting is to narrow, controversial topic rarely go on to become long term productive editors, while those people who do have long, productive editing careers almost always started with a broad focus and learned the culture of Wikipedia on articles that are not controversial.
There are only four classes of access level for editing, unconfirmed, confirmed, 500/30, and administrator:
All users start out as unconfirmed, and anyone edits without using an account can only hold this level. Unconfirmed users can not edit any page that is protected, semi-protected or under a 500/30 restriction.
Users can be confirmed by any administrator, or become autoconfirmed when their account is at least four days old and they have made at least 10 edits. There is no difference in practical terms between confirmed and autoconfirmed. These users can edit pages that are semi-protected but not fully protected or under a 500/30 restriction.
500/30 is a restriction applied to a very small number of topics that is similar to semi-protection but requires users to have been registered for at least 30 days and have made at least 500 edits.
Administrators are the only group of editors who can protect or unprotect pages, edit fully protected pages and block and unblock users. To become an administrator you need to pass a Request for adminship.
Actual experience as an editor is judged informally to no set criteria, based on how long someone has been editing, the standards of their editing and conduct, and their demonstrated understanding of Wikipedia policies and practices.
Discretionary sanctions do allow uninvolved administrators to issue topic bans, that is to disallow an editor from editing a given topic or topics where their contributions are judged to be a net-negative to the project for some reason. This ban will either be for a finite length of time (typically 3-12 months) or indefinitely. Topic bans may be appealed, but that appeal will not be granted unless uninvolved administrators are happy that the editor concerned will not cause disruption. The easiest way to demonstrate this is to present evidence of several months productive contribution to an unrelated area of the project without being the cause of or exacerbating drama or controversy.
Those editors who do not move on from a topic they have been topic banned from, and/or cause disruption in another topic area, are the least likely to be successful when appealing. Thryduulf (talk) 14:58, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Editor conduct in e-cigs articles: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Editor conduct in e-cigs articles: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.
    • No, the section you link to only deals with the enforcement of sanctions imposed by ArbCom (for instance, editor A gets indefinitely topic banned by ArbCom, he violates his restriction and is reported to AE, assuming it's his first violation the admins there can only block him for up to one month). Those provisions do not apply to admins imposing discretionary sanctions.
  • Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?
    • Basically, any editor is free to choose whatever dispute resolution method he thinks will be best suited to solve a dispute, provided he is acting in good faith.
  • For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?
    • Only the admin who imposed the sanction being appealed is considered involved, those who have expressed an opinion but did not directly impose the sanction are not considered involved.
  • Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?
    • In the first instance, you should ask the admin in question to refrain from acting on account of his involvement; if he doesn't comply, you can ask the other administrators commenting in the AE thread; if they disagree, it is up to those who hear the appeal and, finally, to ArbCom.
  • Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
    • No. Admins are free to, and ought to comment during appeals, in keeping with the spirit of WP:ADMINACCT, but the fact they choose not to is not grounds for the case to be resolved in favour of the appealing editor. Salvio Let's talk about it! 12:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Salvio. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 00:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Salvio said. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to Salvio for a clear concise reply. Which of course I agree with. Doug Weller talk 18:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many different ways can we find to say "Salvio is right"? Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a academic would say, "See Giuliano (2016a) for a full explanation of the problem." --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 19:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we need more people to agree with Salvio? Gamaliel (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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