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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by CypherPunkyBrewster (talk | contribs) at 04:18, 9 October 2015 (→Statement by CypherPunkyBrewster: Thanks for the clear explanation). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Clarification request: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

Initiated by Beyond My Ken at 21:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Beyond My Ken

In the current AN/I thread concerning the editing of User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (RAN), a number of concerns have been raised, however there has been disagreement during the discussion about the scope and meaning of Remedy #2.2 of WP:ARBRAN, "Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )'s topic ban on article creation". I would like clarification of this remedy, both for RAN's information, and for the information of other editors examining RAN's edits, including those involved in the current AN/I discussion.

Here is the history of the remedy as I understand it:

  • In December 2011, another community discussion on AN/I, closed by Swarm, determined that the topic ban should be made indefinite. It was expressed as " Richard Arthur Norton's topic ban (from creating new articles and from performing page moves) is extended indefinitely".
  • In March 2013, the final decision of WP:ARBRAN was posted. Remedy #2.2 "Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )'s topic ban on article creation" -- which passed 12 to 1 -- reads:

    The Committee acknowledges that Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )'s community-placed topic ban on article creations was a valid and apparently successful attempt to curb his text-based copyright violations, and further recognizes that this sanction has been violated a number of times. This topic ban will remain in place and is assumed under the Arbitration Committee's authority. After at least six months have elapsed, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) may appeal to the Committee to have the topic ban lifted in full; in order for appeals of this remedy to be considered, he shall be required to submit evidence of substantial work on his part towards resolving the Contributor Copyright Investigations filed against him, most particularly the one focused on his text contributions.

Given this history, it appears to me that the Committee did not fashion a new topic ban, but simply accepted, endorsed and adopted the existing community ban. If this is correct, then RAN's topic ban forbids him "from creating new articles and from page moves".

The problems arise in trying to determine the exact meaning of this. There are, I believe, two distinct possibilities:

  1. RAN is forbidden to create articles anywhere on Wikipedia, and is forbidden from making page moves of any kind anywhere on Wikipedia; or
  2. RAN is forbidden to create articles in article space, but may create them in his userspace. He is forbidden from moving those articles into article space.

Obviously, these are radically different. If the first is the correct interpretation, then RAN has violated his topic ban hundreds of times by the creation of articles in his userspace, and a similar number of times by making normal page moves (i.e. those not related to his userspace articles). If the second is the case, then there have been no recent blatant violations that I am aware of, although an argument could be made that by directly encouraging movement of his userspace articles into articlespace by other editors, and by submitting articles to AfC, RAN is attempting to circumvent the topic ban through the use of proxies. That, however, is not the subject of this clarification request.

To assist in this clarification request, I plan on notifying members of the Arbitration Committee at the time of the ARBRAN decision who are not members of the current committee, in case they have insights into the Committee's thinking at the time. BMK (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have posted neutral pointers to this request to the 11 Arbitrators who voted on Remedy 2.2 who are not current members of the committee: Carcharoth, Coren, David Fuchs, Hersfold, Kirill Lokshin, Newyorkbrad, NuclearWarfare, Risker, SilkTork,Timotheus Canens, and Worm That Turned. AKG and Courcelles are the two current Arbs who voted on the remedy. BMK (talk) 21:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My thanks to Worm and SilkTork for bringing up the November 2013 clarification, which I was not aware of, even though it was probably included in a link Choor monster brought to light in the AN/I discussion. BMK (talk) 21:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yunshui - Could you or a clerk specifically ask RAN to respond? BMK (talk) 03:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To bring everyone up to date, the AN/I thread has been closed by Spartaz, with the implementation of Carrite's suggested community ban on RAN using the "quote=" parameter. In addition, Carrite implemented SilkTork's suggestion that RAN's articles in his user space be tagged with an explanation of the reason the article was in userspace and not mainspace, and informing anyone planning on moving it of their responsibility for the article's content, including any copyvio problems.

The question remains, however, of what, exactly, RAN's primary article creation/page move topic ban means, so the closing of the AN/I thread should not cause this clarification request to be closed. I would ask that it not be permanently stalled by RAN's apparently deliberate choice not to make a statement here. BMK (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out that the use of the "Quote=" parameter being discussed on Jimbo's talk page is not at all central to my clarification request. What is central is the question of what RAN's topic ban means. Does it mean he can create articles in his user space but can't move them, or does it mean he can't create articles anywhere and can't move pages anywhere, or some combination of the various possibilities. Editors discussing his contributions disagree on the meaning and purpose of the ban, which is why I asked for clarification; the "quote=" discussion is a side issue. BMK (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

Statement by SilkTork

We almost reached a decision to suspend the topic ban - Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Richard_Arthur_Norton_(1958-_)/Proposed_decision#Richard_Arthur_Norton_.281958-_.29.27s_topic_ban_on_article_creation, but I don't recall a discussion on allowing him to create articles in userspace, and then having someone approve of it before moving it into mainspace. I think if that option had been raised, I would have supported it, probably in preference to a suspension. The form of the topic ban, in which he was forbidden to make page moves, implies that he was allowed to create articles in draft space, but not move them into mainspace himself. It is up to the current Committee as to how to proceed; my view is that if the articles that have been created under this method are free of copyright violations, then I don't see a problem, and it would be something to be considered favourably in a future appeal. SilkTork ✔Tea time 22:41, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Following Worm's example, I have moved my comment here. And thank you Worm for providing a link to the November 2013 clarification, in which I was involved. My view at the time was that if RAN were urging other editors to move his drafts into mainspace, that could be considered proxy editing as a way to circumvent his topic ban, and that a direct appeal to have the ban lifted would be more appropriate. The conclusion of the discussion was that creating articles in draftspace wasn't explicitly forbidden by the remedy, so RAN could create articles, and someone else could move them into mainspace as long as they assumed full responsibility for them. I think that was an appropriate outcome. I think it's for the present Committee to decide if an amendment needs to be made to explicitly forbid article creation in draftspace, as I think we didn't explicitly forbid it. My own current view is that allowing RAN to create articles in draftspace, and then have someone check them before moving them into mainspace, is a positive remedy as it provides the means to educate RAN on what is appropriate, and also allows the community to assess RAN's progress, which would be helpful in any future appeal. If he continues to violate copyright rules in his draftspace editing, then the ban would remain in place, and may even be extended to draftspace to prevent further waste of the community's time. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have proposed that a move notice should be placed on all RAN's draftspace articles making users aware they take full responsibility if moving them into mainspace. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:47, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jbhunley

I was briefly involved in the ANI discussion that prompted this request and I supported an indef block because of his obstinate refusal to recognize there was a problem with way he was using quote= to include copyrighted text in violation of our non-free content policy. My thought being if someone does not get a clue after many others describe the problem over a period of years and they are continuing the problematic behavior then they really do not belong on a collaborative project like Wikipedia.

RAN is a prolific writer of articles and has created ~300 in his user space [1], evidently since his ban. I looked at 10 randomly and found one (1) that used quote= and was a redirect to project space; Five (2) that seem to have the problem with excessive text in quote= and four (3) not making use of quote=. The articles I looked at are below.

  1. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Edward Everett Grosscup ==>Edward Everett Grosscup
  2. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/John Jacob Esher, User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/George Henry Payne, User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Arthur von Briesen (lawyer), User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/James William McGhee, User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/J. Walter Smith
  3. User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/John Milton Potter,User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Gerard Maxwell Weisberg, User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Death on Birthday, User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Johannes Sembach

Looking at his contributions shows me he is a prolific content creator and but for his obstinate refusal to 'get' that he should not be importing excessive quotations into articles and why doing so is bad he would be an asset to the project. The continuation of the original problem in his user space indicates to me that his ban should extent to all name spaces. The question what the original intent of the ban, and his understanding of it, was is really only relevant if he is going to be sanctioned for violating the ban. If he is not going to be sanctioned now just make it clear he may not create articles in any name space and be done.

Massive violation of the non-free content policy is not compatible with with the goals of the project. The down side of this is I hate to see what is obviously a lot of time and work, voluntarily contributed by a talent researcher, go to waste. If the articles in his user space are not going to be deleted out of hand I would be happy to, with the permission of the committee, help go through the articles and clean them up so they do not violate our content policies. JbhTalk 23:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Worm That Turned

I'm happier out of that section below, the decision should be with the current committee, so I'll just comment here instead. Richard is a prolific contributor and generally an asset to Wikipedia. However, he appears to have a blind spot on how Wikipedia handles copyright. As this is such crucial area for the encyclopedia, we need to be firm on this - and Richard's arguments that his actions are "legal" are irrelevant here. Excessive use of quotes was one of the issues that was raised was with excessive quotes (Carrite's evidence), and that issue is still happening. Personally, I supported Carrite's excellent suggestion at the ANI (topic banning Rich from using quotes at least in references), and given that Carrite has followed this case closer than most, I do recommend listening to his opinion.
As for the "creating articles in his user space" issue, I do remember it being discussed - as the November 2013 clarification was specifically around the issue of pages moving from his userspace into article space. WormTT(talk) 08:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Coren

When we enacted this remedy, it was very clear that RAN had considerable difficulty with complying with the requirement of copyright law; and copyright violations are just as damaging regardless of which namespace they are in. My intent, when supporting that remedy, was that RAN was not to create any articles in any namespace. — Coren (talk) 22:13, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carrite

As Worm That Turned notes above, RAN was expressly permitted to create articles in his own space per the cited November 2013 Arbitration clarification. The core of this ruling is that he could create but that anyone moving his ostensible new starts to mainspace would be doing it on their own authority and under their own responsibility that the material should be copyright clear. To my knowledge no substantial copyright violation has been committed by RAN through this process. Does the process actually work? No, there is a huge and growing backlog of RAN's unported creations and the encyclopedia is the less for it. I've made a proposal at AN/I calling for a prohibition of RAN's use of the "quote=" parameter of the citation template — which is clear "fair use" under American copyright law, but still a point of contention for the Anti-Fair Use caucus. (It's completely unnecessary and should be removed from the template itself, in my opinion, and the source of much of this latest hubbub, in my opinion). I think RAN is completely safe in his understanding and adherence of copyright, but he has his enemies, to be sure. I believe the Arbcom expectation that he should go through 50,000 nearly 10-year-old edits looking for his own copyright violations is patently absurd and should be vacated at this time in conjunction with this clarification request. If RAN doesn't truly "get" copyright and violates it, he'll be banned off almost instantaneously — he knows that, we all know that. Yet because the Contributor Copyright Investigation process does not scale and is backlogged, RAN is effectively lifetime banned from new creations via normal means for no very good reason. Carrite (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pee Ess. This is still the correct answer to the puzzle:

"...Get rid of the ill-considered topic ban on creations, which was a really bad decision in his case. Limit him to 5 starts a month for 12 months or some other reasonable number. He'll be monitored with respect to copyvio, trust me." Carrite (talk) 10:10 am, 14 November 2013

Step up to the plate and get rid of the idiotic "Must Self-Police Entire Decade of Volunteer Work For Wikipedia First" requirement... The old copyright violations were never so prolific or terrible as alleged, done is done. Carrite (talk) 16:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Thryduulf - It is an abject waste of time for me or you or Richard Norton or anyone to waste time parsing 10-year old edits, virtually all of which have been through subsequent editing by others, looking for nefarious cut-and-pasting from websites or failure to footnote in the 2015-approved manner. To repeat: an abject waste of time. It is never going to be done, ever, by anyone — so please don't pretend that this is any less absurd a requirement than chopping down the tallest tree in the forest with a herring... Greenlight Richard for a limited number of new starts per month, monitor those carefully, and ban his ass if he violates copyright. That's the solution. Carrite (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • November will mark the FOUR YEAR mark since the CCI case against RAN was opened. There are cases in the queue that are nearly two years older. CCI does not scale — this queue will never be resolved. Carrite (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I have been working through the backlog of user-space articles started by RAN I have been not only flagging each in accord with the recent AN/I decision in his case but have been removing all "quote=" quotations. Assuming these deleted cites fall within the umbrella of Fair Use under American copyright law (which is nearly certain), I have found ZERO evidence of any copyright violations in the material I have touched so far. It also seems clear that RAN has accepted the AN/I prohibition on further use of the "quote=" parameter. It makes no sense whatsoever from the perspective of building the encyclopedia to tighten sanctions on this very productive editor. Carrite (talk) 06:29, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Thryduulf - Your intimation that RAN's 2014 and 2015 have copyright violations is absolutely dishonest — "no consensus that they do not"... That's completely bogus. Show me one example of copyright violation in any of those. Five bucks you can't do it without nit-picking his (soon-to-be-deleted) fair use "quote=" glosses... I'll even loan you a herring. Carrite (talk) 15:50, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please re-read what I wrote, "no consensus that they do not" is accurate. Your statement that "there are no copyright violations from the last two years, if you exclude the parts where there is not a consensus that they contain no copyright problems" may or may not also be accurate, but it is a different claim and not a claim that I consider relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 16:06, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is completely bogus, "have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife" type phrasing. It is also equally true that "there is no consensus that they do" contain copyvio. Small sample size either way, n=0. It's an absurdity, and one phrased in a very dishonest way. I'll go further since I've been over the new 2015 material and am ready to embark on the 2014 material — there are no apparent copyvios in that, and I insist you or anyone prove me wrong before you go intimating that there is any such problem with that material. It is simply not a problem with RAN's new material outside of the controversial-and-now-prohibited "quote=" quotations he has been so fond of. We're here to build an encyclopedia, last I checked. RAN actually is doing that. Why are people impeding him? The bad edits of 2005-2008 are buried under the better part of a decade of editing by others, revisions, deletions, and changes. They're part of the sheetrock job at Wikipedia by now, spackled and painted over three times. It's absurd to expect him to waste a year of his time on the really quite unimportant job of analyzing ancient edits. Carrite (talk) 02:18, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Andrew Davidson

Jimbo Wales recently stated that "It should be noted though that extended quotes, properly sourced, are not generally a violation of copyright. ... We have never, to my recollection and knowledge, had a legal complaint or threat of any kind about a properly sourced quote." We should therefore not be officious or bureaucratic in preventing the use of quotes when their use is being endorsed at the highest level. Andrew D. (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Also, please note that many of the sources in question were published before 1923 and so are now public domain in the USA. For example, in User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/John Jacob Esher, there is a quotation from the Chicago Tribune of 1901. To complain about quoting such sources is as absurd as complaining about the use of photographs from the same period. This suggests a way forward. As RAN likes to work on deceased subjects of this sort, he could perhaps stick to pre-1923 US sources and use them freely without all this fuss. The date provides a clear demarcation, which is what he would like, and there is a vast body of material of that age which will keep him busy for years. Andrew D. (talk) 16:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Choor monster

My involvement began when I raised the issue on ANI regarding a particular article that began as an RAN subpage. After a comedy of good faith errors that turned mildly unfunny, it seemed best to turn to ANI for help.

I believe the issue boils down to a single question. Just how absolute is our policy regarding WP:NFCCP?

I would say that, despite the words written there and quoted above, there is in fact an unstated but widely accepted gray zone. We normally do not delete non-justified fair use quotations, we bury them in the history. They remain on WP, available for any reader who knows where to look. They can be linked to from anywhere on the Internet. In particular, they are sometimes linked to in Talk discussions. Meanwhile, admin-level deletion, whether a simple RevDel or a full-scale AfD, is left for the extreme cases only.

I suggest that user subpages fall into this gray zone. They are the sort of page which you have to know where to look. You do not stumble upon them in normal browsing, and even Talk discussions rarely link to them.

Placing the two in the same gray zone does not imply identical treatment. But it does provide breathing room. Choor monster (talk) 14:00, 20 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rich Farmbrough (RAN)

Indeed the "quote=" issue should be set aside in considering the stated question for clarification: "What was the meaning of the restriction assumed by the Committee?"

However there are additional questions:

  1. What should the restriction say henceforth?
  2. Has the restriction passed its sell-by date?

For these questions the "quote=" issue has some relevance. It should be understood, that "quote=" fills at least four functions, which I discussed some years ago:[citation needed]

  1. It provides concrete, albeit de-contextualised, citation support for a statement.
  2. It relates a specific passage to a specific citation.
  3. It provides insurance against link rot.
  4. It provides a means of limited verification, especially important in hard to find or restricted content.

(As remarked elsewhere, copyright concerns are somewhat misplaced.)

It would seem that the "quote=" issue shows that RAN is interested in providing quality citations, providing them requires more work than not doing so, effectively refuting claims (if any such were made) that previous issues around using copyright text were born of a desire to produce articles with he least effort.

On the other hand it might be argued that RAN failed to see the writing on the wall in both these issues, and it was for that reason that sanctions were imposed, and since that has not (apparently) changed sanctions should be maintained. However even if we impute an inability to see community consensus before a restriction is imposed, there is no doubt that RAN is aware of and has understood and complied with copyright concerns of the community.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:03, 22 September 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Addendum

There seems to be a mistaken idea that we benefit from preventing good content being created by people who created poor content in the past. On this reckoning no-one would be editing Wikipedia (except one or two who only tell others what to do, or delete things, I suppose).

Some time ago I looked at the "examples" of alleged copyvios by this editor, and remain unconvinced by some of them. For example one was text written by a Smithsonian employee. Approximately half of their employees are funded by the federal government, and their work is PD-USA. No-one has made any effort to establish if this was the case. If the copyvios were as egregious and extensive as was claimed it should have been simple to find numerous unambiguous examples.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:36, 30 September 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Only in death

Someone who knows advised me it would be simple (5 minutes!) to write a bot to strip all the uses of the quote= parameter from the articles in RAN's userspace (leaving the references otherwise untouched). Since this is the primary cause of the COI material, perhaps ARBCOM could pass a motion this be done instead? Given that RAN is now prohibited from using the quote function by the community, this would resolve a lot of the issues and allow people to actually move forward without the need for excessive and time-wasting vetting of his drafts. The refs are the important bit, quotes are not needed 99% of the time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:39, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If only it were that simple, but while the quote= may be the primary cause of copyright violating material in the recent drafts, it is not the only cause for concern in all the drafts. It does need human review. Thryduulf (talk) 09:54, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
True, but it would be a damn sight quicker if the quote= issue was taken out of the equation. The actual backlog of articles with issues from last time still exists, there is now a backlog of *drafts* (500+ at last count I think) in his userspace due to the less than explicit wording from the previous case.. Surely the prime purpose of any alterations in his restrictions at this point (since no one is willing to pull the trigger and go for an outright ban despite RAN's unrepentant refusal to obey consensus on this issue) is to reduce the backlog of RAN-related issues? How does the below do that? Preventative measures have had no effect previously, so why not try doing something to actually clean up the mess? Relying on some outside influence to get RAN to do his own cleanup is folly, he has no intention to, has made no efforts to, and is not going to just because an additional restriction is placed on top. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:14, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Yunshui, the problem which you seem to be missing is not that quote use may or may not be a copyright violation, its that RAN's use of it certainly violated the use of non-free content. Non-free quotes have to be short and provide detail that could not otherwise be paraphrased or explained without the quote (in context). Extensive quotes are prohibited. RAN's use of quoted text was not even in the article as read, he used (and still does in his userspace) excessively long quote= that added nothing to the article. Even a short quote of non-free text would generally not be used in that situation. RAN's issue is that despite being repeatedly told time and again his extensive use of non-free content violated wikipedia's policies he has shown no inclination to stop and has just moved from doing it in article space to doing it in his userspace. Policy and the non-free use guidelines are very clear on this. Enforcement on this has been consistant for years. RAN either argues his additions are not a violation, or that they are a violation but not according to US copyright law so he doesnt have to obey wikipedia's policies. The first has been rejected soundly by the community repeatedly over a number of years. The second has been rejected as irrelevant as wikipedia's policies and guidelines are by neccessity, stricter than the law allows for. All of the above is merely explanatory and could be gleaned from 5 mins looking at the past cases, and discussions, and restrictions placed on RAN. At this point RAN is community banned from using quote= at all anywhere because he cannot be trusted to use correct judgement in line with wikipedia policy in his use of it. His past articles have extensive problems, his drafts have the same issues. Literally every single one has to be checked, line by line in some cases due to his past history. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Because this really is getting old now:
2006
2010
2015 Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Per a recent discussion on the clerks' mailing list I've removed qualifiers ("ex-arb") from section headers, if you'd like to make it clear that you're commenting from that perspective could you please say so at the beginning of your statement. Thanks, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Copyright violations are possibly the most damaging things to include in Wikipedia, regardless of where they are. The December 2014-January 2015 amendment request was declined because there was no evidence of him doing the "substantial work" on clearing the backlog of his CCI, and there appears to have been none since, rather more copyright issues have been introduced. Accordingly I believe that we should be clarifying/amending the restriction to disallow all article and article draft creations in all namespaces and disallow all moves of pages into the article namespace by him or at his request/encouragement. Anyone else may move pages he has created, but they must explicitly take full responsibility for any copyright violations on any page they move. This would last indefinitely but may be appealed when (a) all draft articles in his userspace and all pages he authored in the draft namespace have been verified free of copyright violations or deleted; and (b) he presents evidence of substantial work on his part towards resolving the Contributor Copyright Investigations filed against him, most particularly the one focused on his text contributions. I will propose a motion to this effect if my colleagues agree with my opinion and think such clarification is required. Thryduulf (talk) 11:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Carrite: As was made clear in the most recent ammendment request, we do not expect RAN to go through his entire contribution history, we expect him to undertake substantial work towards clearing his CCI backlog. To date we have seen evidence of almost zero work towards clearing it and so I will vote against any proposal to remove the requirement or relax the restriction until that changes. If you believe the encyclopaedia is poorer without RAN's creations, you are free to confirm they contain no copyright problems and move them yourself, until that time please do not complain that others are not doing so. Thryduulf (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I largely agree with Thryduulf. Before considering scaling back any restrictions, I want to see that the existing issues have been addressed, meaning that RAN has made substantial efforts toward addressing the previous problems, and has done so properly. The point here, to be quite blunt, was that RAN was to help clearing up the issues he caused, and I won't consider relaxing the restrictions until substantial effort is made toward that. If instead it's more of the same in a different namespace, we may need to make the creation ban apply to all namespaces until the existing issues are addressed. I do agree that the original restriction was not on all namespaces, so if we decide that's needed it would require an amendment motion. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm awaiting comments from RAN before making any decision, but I would note that I can't see any clear evidence that he's fully accepted the community's views on extensive quotations/copyvios at this time. I would like to hear an explanation of his current understanding of the copyvio policy before accepting or denying this request. Yunshui 雲水 10:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked RAN to respond here, but note that he's already done so at JimboTalk. Still considering. Yunshui 雲水 11:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't look as though we're going to get a response, so here's my take on BMK's original request: As I read the wording of the sanction, it allows RAN to create drafts in userspace, but prohibits him from moving them to mainspace. This may not have been the intention of the original drafters of the wording, but it was confirmed to be the approved interpretation in the 2013 clarification and I see no reason to differ from the consensus arrived at there. If there is to be a proposal to amend the sanction so as to explicitly prohibit the creation of drafts, this would need to take place by motion, but I for one would not support it. Yunshui 雲水 08:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • By way of clarification, RAN's ban allows him to create articles in his userspace, but not to move them to mainspace. And, regarding the proposal to lift the restriction, I am opposed. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:28, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm with Thryduulf on this one, and it does seem that a new motion will be required. I don't think RAN should be working on new material while there is outstanding material that needs to be cleared. 12:27, 24 September 2015 (UTC) previous unsigned comment added by Doug Weller

Motion: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

Remedy 2.2 of the Richard Arthur Norton (1958 - ) case is struck and replaced by:

2.3) Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ("RAN") is indefinitely prohibited from:

  • Creating any articles or draft articles in any namespace.
  • Moving any page into the article namespace from any other namespace.

Other editors may move pages created or substantially edited by RAN, but only if they explicitly take responsibility for any copyright violations on that page.

This remedy may be appealed after the later of 6 months and when all draft articles he has authored, in his userspace and in the draft namespace, have been verified free of copyright violations and moved to the article namespace by other editors or deleted. In order for appeals of this remedy to be considered, he shall be required to submit evidence of substantial work on his part towards resolving the Contributor Copyright Investigations (CCI) filed against him, most particularly the one focused on his text contributions.

Any article or draft article created contrary to this restriction will result in a block, initially of at least one month and then proceeding per the enforcement provisions. The article or draft article may be speedily deleted under criterion G5 by any administrator.

Any page moves made contrary to this restriction may be enforced by blocks per the enforcement provisions. The page move may be reversed by any editor able to do so.

For this motion there are 13 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

  1. Thryduulf (talk) 11:09, 28 September 2015 (UTC) as proposer[reply]
  2. Doug Weller (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 16:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I understand Yunshui's concerns, so my vote, at least, does not reflect any thought on exactly how the "quote" parameter should be used. It is, rather, that RAN is still and yet creating articles that are at least in a grey area as copyright and nonfree content use go. The spirit (if not the letter) of the original ruling was that RAN was to help clean up the mess, that being, substantially work on the CCI, before returning to such activity, and that it would be wise for him to stay well clear of the line when it comes to copyright and nonfree material, not try to dance right along it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  5. AGK [•] 23:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  6. (see comments) Yunshui 雲水 09:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I can't get behind this. Unless someone can show me either clear evidence of copyright violations in RAN's recent drafts, or clear consensus/policy that use of the quote parameter violates WP:COPYVIO, I'm opposed to tightening the existing restrictions. Yunshui 雲水 11:47, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
RAN's drafts need to be individually examined for copyright violations - whether they contain them or not (and there is no consensus in the community that they do not). This motion is required to stop the backlog of contributions needing to be examined growing faster than it can be cleared, and to try again to get RAN to do the substantial work towards clearing his CCI that he needs to do. Thryduulf (talk) 15:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Equally, I see no community consensus that they do. My concern is that this skirts the fringes of policy-by-fiat; if we decide that the use of quote in these drafts constitutes a copyright violation, we are effectively amending the copyvio policy to that effect. I am not convinced that the current policy's interpretation should be so broad as to encompass this, and it certainly isn't our place to make changes to it. Yunshui 雲水 07:09, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about the quote parameter, which is why it is not mentioned at all in the motion. I have no opinion at all on whether it is a good or bad thing in the general case. This is, per Seraphimblade, about RAN continuing to create work for other editors without even attempting to help clean up the backlog he has already left. Thryduulf (talk) 17:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain

Comments
  • As best as I can tell, we're sitting on a motion at 5-1 when the subject of the motion has not been formally notified of it. I'm going to ask the clerks to do a round of notifications. Courcelles (talk) 05:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jumping to the comments section to lay out my position, so that the Oppose section doesn't get too crowded... @Thryduulf: I do get where you're coming from with regards to reducing the workload on other editors with this motion. However, as I understand it, the primary reason for the copyright complaints made against RAN is the "excessive" quotation from sources. I am unsure whether this constitutes a clear violation of the copyright policy, and it seems to me that the community is too: some argue that long quotations are a copyright violation, others that they are not. There appears to be no clear consensus. It is therefore unclear to me whether there actually has been any consistent history of copyright violation in RAN's contributions. I do not think it's possible to make any meaningful headway with the CCI until this question is resolved - if the overuse of quotations is a copyright violation, then this motion has merit and I would vote in favour of it. If the use of quotations is not a copyright violation, then unless a pattern of other text-based copyvios can be demonstrated, the CCI is moot. I am not happy imposing a prohibition on draft creation until that issue is decided. Yunshui 雲水 07:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, on reflection and having reviewed some of the history more closely this morning, I'm starting to think that I've focussed too heavily on this one aspect of the case. There are other copyright concerns that need have been raised, and taking those into account, I've become convinced that the best course of action for Wikipedia is to pass this motion. It may not be entirely fair to RAN, but Wikipedia isn't benefitting from contributions tha have to be checked like this, and ultimately it's the good of the project that we need to consider. Striking my opoosition, and moving to support. Yunshui 雲水 09:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request: Gun control (Gaijin42)

Initiated by Gaijin42 at 20:15, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Gun control arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Gaijin42_.28topic-ban.29
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Lifted/loosened

Statement by Gaijin42

It is now 10 years, 207 days since my topic ban in gun control was applied , 10 years, 199 days since the change I made which was found to violate the topic ban [2]. Further it is 10 years, 325 days since the most recent of the diffs used in the findings against me in the case, and most of the diffs were 7 months prior to that. [3]

First the mea culpa : While I believe that the opinions of Halbrook and others constitute a valid "notable minority viewpoint" under WP:NPOV and WP:RS sufficient to receive minor coverage in mainstream articles I acknowledge that

  • there is not (and was not) consensus for inclusion of these viewpoints in mainstream articles,
  • and that I failed to recognize and abide by that lack of consensus,
  • and that during that time I did contribute to a battleground with edit warring, incivility, and the other findings in the case.

On the behaviors : In the time since my ban was imposed, I feel I have otherwise been a productive member of the community, and have not had any sanctions or blocks applied (with the exception of the early topic ban violation mentioned above). (1 warning for incivility which was later rescinded by Callanec User_talk:Gaijin42/Archive_2#Arbitration_enforcement_warning) During this time I have been involved in several controversial/hot areas a number of which are under DS (ARBPIA, BLPs, ARBAPDS) and have been able to engage with editors of all persuasions without significant issues. I have taken particular care to not engage in warring, and engage with those on the other side of disputes with me, working to build a collaborative environment that conforms with wiki policy. I believe I have shown I can act appropriately in hot-button areas and that I deserve a second chance in the gun control area.

On the topic area itself : if my topic ban is lifted I will abide the consensus described above. Further, I will not initiate any actions to try and change that consensus (No new RFCs, WP:BOLD changes etc) in mainstream articles. Even if the ban is fully lifted, I have no immediate plans to edit to that effect in the "nexus" areas where the topic is already discussed, such as Nazi gun control theory or Gun_Control_in_the_Third_Reich_(book).

If the committee feel it is not appropriate/timely to completely lift the topic ban, possible stepping stones would be some sort of probation, mentorship, 1rr, or to narrow the topic ban to the Nazi gun control theory topic itself. If that path is taken I request that the ban be more narrowly construed, as "broadly construed" would cover the NRA, and Stephen Halbrook, etc which are central to the wider topic of Gun Control. (Although obviously any edits dealing directly with the narrow topic area would still be verboten) (Halbrook for instance has been significantly involved in all of the recent SCOTUS gun control cases, and many of the lower court cases, including District_of_Columbia_v._Heller, McDonald v. Chicago, Printz v. United States etc). See also my 3rd point below about "broadly construed" and american politics.

In regards to why I am making this appeal, First of all I feel that I can be a valuable member of the community in the broader GC topic area, and would like to resume editing there. A few of the things that I would edit off hand are :

example areas of potential work
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Secondly, I would like to be returned to general full standing in the community. As a specific example, I have had fairly significant involvement in SPI with a good track record of identifying socks I run across [4]. I made an application to become an SPI Clerk [5] but was declined with both Rschen7754 and Callanec mentioning this sanction being a reason for declining [6]. If in the future I were to apply for this, or other permissions/roles, I would like to have this not hanging over my head any longer.

Thirdly, One of my main areas of interest in editing is politics, legal issues and court cases in general. Due to the way the legal and political system works gun control topics often interact with non gun control topics (and visa versa) , similarly notable judges,lawyers, and politicians are involved in cases across the spectrum, and therefore the ban interferes with editing far outside the gun control topic area. One specific example : the clarification request I made in November 2014 Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gun_control#Request_for_clarification_.28November_2014.29 the ban made working on an Obamacare article more complicated and working on the Commandeering article virtually impossible. Also, as election season heats up, gun control is again a major topic for many candidates, and the "broadly construed" bit starts risking being an "american politics" topic ban (particularly in light of how the Commandeering clarification went.

Yunshui Two clarifications, by "normal arbitration appeals process" do you mean this process we are doing right now? Or appeals directly to the admin/AE/AN for DS type actions? Also, regarding the 1 year lift, is that automatic, or do I need to come back here for confirmation in a year? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

AGK pinging you in particular since you had commented already, consider this a friendly nudge to you and your cohorts :) (Some delay is understandable, with all the kumioko drama and other events aroudn the wiki, but this seems like an easy one to cross off the honey-do list!) Gaijin42 (talk) 20:54, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cwobeel

I was not aware of this ban, but despite being almost always in opposing ends of content disputes with Gaijin42, I have found him to be very mindful of respecting policy and engaging civilly and respectfully in dispute resolution. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Gun control (Gaijin42): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Gun control (Gaijin42): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • My initial thinking is that a trial suspension of the topic ban would be acceptable. I'm not in favour of a narrowed-scope tban, which could easily descend into wikilawering, but I believe I'd be content to suspend the ban for six months and then repeal it if no issues crop up during that period. This is not a vote to accept at the moment, but I'm definitely leaning that way. Awaiting further comments before making a firm decision. Yunshui 雲水 07:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Gaijin42: The appeals process would be that laid out at Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Arbitration_enforcement_bans. Once the suspension expires (assuming the ban is not reinstated) so would the topic ban, though you might need to remind someone to update Wikipedia:Editing_restrictions at the time. Yunshui 雲水 14:23, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: Gaijin42 topic ban suspension

Gaijin42 (talk · contribs)'s topic ban from gun control-related edits imposed as Remedy 4 of the Gun control case is suspended for a period of one year. During the period of suspension, this topic ban may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Gaijin42 fail to adhere to Wikipedia editing standards in the area previously covered by the topic ban. Appeal of such a reinstatement would follow the normal arbitration enforcement appeals process. After one year from the date of passage of this motion, if the topic ban has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the topic ban will be lifted.

For this motion there are 12 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

  1. Since there's some support for this, let's turn it into a proper motion. Yunshui 雲水 09:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Doug Weller (talk) 10:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain

  1. Thryduulf (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recuse

Comments

Clarification request: Status of WP:CUOS

Initiated by L235 at 05:52, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by L235

The banner at the top of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight currently states: This page is a procedural policy, and documents an extension of the arbitration policy developed by the Arbitration Committee in consultation with the Wikipedia community. Any significant edit to this page should have approval from the Arbitration Committee.[...]" However, the page is most definitely not a "policy" in the sense that it is created by the community, and not a part of the arbitration policy as it was not ratified by the community per WP:A/P#Ratification_and_amendment. It appears to be closest to a procedure (being amendable by the Committee, and being a subpage of "Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee" rather than "Wikipedia:Arbitration"), but it may not even be that because I don't see that any of it has been formally adopted by motion or resolution of the Committee. Could the Committee clarify the status here?

@Thryduulf: What I'm really asking here can be summed into:
  • Can the Committee change it, notwithstanding the community's wishes? If so, then it is not a policy per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Policy_and_precedent; it is a Committee procedure (or maybe an information page), and should definitely not be called an "extension of the arbitration policy";
  • If the Committee can't change it without community consensus, then the Any significant edit to this page should have approval from the Arbitration Committee part of the banner should be removed, and either link to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Ratification_and_amendment or just not be there, implying that the community may change it as they see fit;
  • Also, if the Committee can't change it, then is it binding on the Committee to do all appointments this way?
I understand that WP:NOTBURO, but these are actually substantive questions. A lot of work has gone into making sure that procedures created by the Committee are separate from policies, and if you recall the original ratification of the arbitration policy, some support was contingent on the Committee absolutely not creating policy (e.g., support #106 by Ohconfucius, #134 by Sandstein, oppose #18, and others). Thanks, L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 19:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @NE Ent:, why make this complicated and use a free-form template? There's already the standard:
{{Policy| subcategory = procedural | textoverride = <div style="padding-top: 0.5em; padding-bottom: 0.5em;">This page contains a procedure of the '''[[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee]]'''.{{resize|85%|2=Please do not change this page without the committee's authorisation.}}</div>|1 = WP:CUOS|2 = WP:AC/CUOS}}
Though it does look like the Committee is done with this request and will not action it, so no real use discussing further. L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 02:40, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Answer from NE Ent

"Can the Committee change it," yes per own policies. It's generally understood any page title starting with Wikipedia::Arbitration falls under management of the committee, and editing there requires at least the passive approval of the committee. NE Ent 19:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per request, suggestion:

Note the existing page header isn't actually true -- although the en-wiki arb policy page does say the committee appoints CU, it's actually the WMF page which is binding. NE Ent 02:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hawkeye7

WP:Oversight is not an arbitration policy; it is a deletion policy. And Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/CheckUser and Oversight is a procedural policy that implements it. Per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy, the Committee may create or modify its procedures, provided they are consistent with its scope. It is therefore the case that ArbCom can change it without community consultation. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rich Farmbrough (CUOS)

It's agreed that this is not "policy". Therefore L235's suggesting that it not bear a label calling it "policy" - even if it is qualified in such a way as to make it clear (if someone looks it the meaning of "procedural policy" in the history of a discussion linked to from the talk page of a category) is hardly bureaucratic.

I'm sure the combined intellect of those perusing these pages can come up with better terminology. (It reminds me of soap-free soap...)

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Status of WP:CUOS: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Status of WP:CUOS: Arbitrator views and discussion

Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough

Initiated by Rich Farmbrough at 12:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Rich Farmbrough arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Remedy 2
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
Information about amendment request
  • Terminate the remedy

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

In a case brought against me some three and a half years ago, it was found that certain community norms had been broken by me, specifically WP:BOTPOL, WP:5P4 and WP:ARBRFUAT.

I note that in the intervening period I have complied with WP:BOTPOL, been civil and collegial with other editors, and been responsive to other editors concerns, as anyone active in the community will know.

In particular I have continued to work at WP:TEAHOUSE, welcome new users, attempted to smooth ruffled feathers at WP:GGTF, mainly by focussing discussion on substantive issues, provided assistance to other editors both on and off-wiki (a list could be made available if desired). I have continued to work on other wikis with no issues.

I also continue to perform work high community trust, on protected templates, but more importantly on edit filters where, together with others (notably Dragons flight) I have overhauled almost every filter to ensure that the whole system continues to work (it was failing) and new filters can be implemented.

Moreover not only have I been policy compliant, collegial and responsive, I have every intention of continuing indefinitely to be so.

For these reasons I request the Arbitration Committee to terminate remedy 2.

Addenda:

Please note that I am eligible to request termination of this sanction from 15 January 2013. The sanction, qua sanction, is continuing to impact my good name in the community, notably impeding my recent RfA, and so the time has come to remove it.

Please also note that I have suggested a more nuanced approach to complete termination in the past, which has been dismissed by various committee members, with rather unflattering characterisations.

Thryduulf@ I would certainly consider you views valuable. I have met with other members of the committee at various wiki-functions. Whether to recuse must be your decision. I would not find fault either way. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Rich Farmbrough: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Rich Farmbrough: Arbitrator views and discussion

Clarification request: Privatemusings

Initiated by CypherPunkyBrewster at 15:22, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Privatemusings arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by CypherPunkyBrewster

Note: This is a legitimate alternative account. I will be happy to reveal my main account to arbcom on request.

In the 2007 Privatemusings case, (Final decision --> Principles --> Sockpuppetry) the following language was used:

"Sockpuppet accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project, such as policy debates."

This is referenced by Wikipedia:Sock puppetry (Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts --> Editing project space) with the language

"Editing project space: Undisclosed alternative accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project."

I created this account after the gamergate arbcom case. In that case, I did not comment on that case using my main account because so many people who have expressed an opinion on gamergate have received real-world harassment off-wiki. I was hoping to use this account if that ever happened again (and, of course, only in cases where I was unambiguously uninvolved.)

Q1: In cases where I have had no prior interactions with anyone named in an arbcom case and had never edited the pages being discussed is using my alternate account to make a statement in an arbcom case a legitimate use of an alternate account?

Q2: Same question, but for ANI, RS noticeboard, NPOV noticeboard, AIAV, COI noticeboard, etc.

Q3: What, exactly, are undisclosed alternative accounts? Is this account "disclosed" by way of my disclosing that it is an alternative account, or do I have to name my main account?

Q4: What, exactly are "discussions internal to the project" and/or "edits to project space"? Are we talking about namespaces here, and if so, which ones?

Basically, I just want clear guidelines on what I can and can not do using this alternative account. I am not disputing any policies or decisions; I just want to know how to follow them.

  • To User:JzG, who wrote "CypherPunkyBrewster is an account apparently created to advance the cause of climate change denial": You are wrong, and you are failing to assume good faith. This alternate account was created in order to edit articles and participate in discussions related to those articles where there is a significant chance of being branded as pro-gamergate, anti-gamergate, global warming denialist, global warming alarmist, pinko liberal, tea-party conservative, or even swivel-eyed loon. I am well aware of the discretionary sanctions associated with American Politics and Climate Change. I do not believe that I have violated the DS using this account, and I have completely stayed away from climate change on my main account for obvious reasons. If you think that I have violated the DS, feel free to report me at AE (I have no problem with identifying my main account to arbcom and asking them to publicly confirm no global warming involvement.)
  • To User:Rich Farmbrough, who wrote "Of course that is a matter for the community, not the committee, though their comments would undoubtedly have some weight", because the 2007 Privatemusings case is cited at the sock puppetry page, I strongly suspect that any attempt to start a community discussion on this topic would quickly devolve into multiple comments telling me to go to arbcom, so I did that first. Also, depending on how one answers my questions above, I could very well be forbidden from starting a community discussion on this topic. It would be, after all, a "discussions internal to the project". CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 03:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • To User:Seraphimblade (regarding the entire comment) That makes perfect sense to me, and I will have no problem following the clarification you posted. Thanks! On reflection, I see the wisdom of using the alternate account only for article editing and dispute resolution directly related to those articles. I will stay away from discussions of project policy, requesting sanctions against other editors, or general participation in dispute resolution or audited content processes when not related to articles I am working on with my alternate account. And of course I already knew that the main and alternate account must keep strictly clear of editing in the same area, and all the other "don't do that"s listed in the sock puppetry policy. I will note that I made one edit that I now know was not allowed.[7] I apologize for that and assure you that it will not happen again. Again, thanks for the clear explanation. CypherPunkyBrewster (talk) 04:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Beyond My Ken

I urge the committee not to accept any requests from this account until there is a public declaration of the editor's primary account. BMK (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Guy's comment below, I concur that CPB's edits do indeed seem to be pushing that agenda. I have asked CPB on their talk page to reveal what account they are an alternate of, but if he or she refuses or ignores the request, I strongly urge the committee not to proceed without CPB revealing to the committee what that account is, and an evaluation being made to see if any aspect of WP:SOCK is being violated. Alternate accounts may not be used to avoid scrutiny, and the climate change area is certainly one in which there has been a significant amount of sockpuppety and other disruptions. BMK (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have placed a Climate Change Discretionary Sanctions notice on CPB's talk page. BMK (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement Rich Farmbrough (CPB)

This has always seemed to me an invidious limitation of legitimate socks. If someone wants (for whatever reason) to use different accounts for different subject areas, then to suggest that those accounts be banned from "project space" discussion is not useful. Certainly crossover should be minimised. I have always imagined that this was an unintentional broadening of the proscription regarding creation of false impressions of support.

Of course that is a matter for the community, not the committee, though their comments would undoubtedly have some weight.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by JzG

CypherPunkyBrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an account apparently created to advance the cause of climate change denial. Given the arbitration cases in that are already (both American Politics and Climate change), it would seem like a really bad idea to let this alternate account edit in project space. Guy (Help!) 21:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Privatemusings: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Privatemusings: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • As Rich Farmbrough says, this is a matter of the sockpuppetry/alternate accounts policy, but it was also brought up in the Privatemusings case. The idea behind it, I think, is quite clear. Some editors, if they, for example, edit articles on sexuality, politics, or other "hot button" areas, may not want those edits to be associated with their main account. Provided that the main and alternate account keep strictly clear of editing in the same area, and the alternate account isn't being used to behave badly or otherwise avoid scrutiny, that is permitted. But the alternate account is not to be used in areas outside of article editing. Article editing, in my view, would generally be composed of the article and article talk spaces, any dispute resolution processes directly related to those articles such as mediation if you're reasonably a party to such a process, and other areas directly related to article content editing such as featured article/good article/DYK candidacies related to articles edited by the alternate account. So at least in my view, it wouldn't be entirely bound to a given namespace. Rather, it is bound to a purpose, content editing. It would not, therefore, include discussions of project policy, requesting sanctions against other editors, or other such internal processes. Nor would it allow general participation in dispute resolution or audited content processes when not related to articles the alternate account is working on. The editor would need to pick a single primary account to use in such internal discussions, and use only that account for them. If you'd prefer that the primary account not be associated with such discussions, your option would be to avoid participating in them.

    For your specific hypothetical scenarios, then: In an ArbCom case, the alternate account should be used only if it is a named party. If you'd like to jump in on a case you're not a named party to, use your primary account. (If the alternate account is a named party, it would be wise to inform the Committee privately of the situation.) AN(I) and other administrative boards, generally not (though I personally wouldn't care if you reported blatant vandals to AIV with it.) Content discussion boards like RSN, NPOVN, etc., yes, so long as the discussion there is directly related to the alternate account's edits. So, discussing content yes, discussing editors no. For your third question, "disclosure" in this sense would mean publicly and clearly disclosing what primary account the alternate account is linked to (you can see my public terminal account for what that looks like), not just disclosing that it is an alternate. I think your fourth question is answered by the above. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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