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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Salvio giuliano (talk | contribs) at 09:32, 15 July 2014 (→Arbitrator views and discussion: c.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Clarification request: Cold Fusion is/isn't Pseudoscience none (orig. case) 13 July 2014

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Clarification request: Cold Fusion is/isn't Pseudoscience

Initiated by 84.106.11.117 (talk) at 03:47, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Pseudoscience arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
original ruling: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William_M._Connolley/Proposed_decision

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by 84.106.11.117

While supported by article content at the time the pseudoscience label was dropped from the Cold Fusion article some time before October 2011.

In the wild it looks like this. Any admin may now ban the Nobel laureate? This is how it should be? It makes no sense to me. What is this doing on my talk page? What does it even mean? Is this the new welcome message?

I've posted one on User_talk:Sandstein talk page to see what happens. Surely he needs such helpful information as much as I do?

further informations

Sandstein, a remarkably productive editor I should add, just demonstrated how the sanctions are being used to ban non-skeptical editors, applicable in one direction only.

Sandstein did not read my deletion review request. My request talks about the one sided nature of these Discretionary Sanctions[1], he responds by posting an info box on my user talk page[2] informing me about these same sanctions. He used imaginary guidelines and retaliates with victim blaming.

I am not the topic of this Request for clarification, is about cold fusion not being pseudoscience while still subjected to pseudoscience sanction.

If the Sanction would work both ways, Sandstein should now be topic banned. This strikes me as a completely idiotic way of doing things, typical skeptic methodology. I would argue the Sanctions themselves are not useful to the project.

My split request was disposed of by skeptical consensus, rather than edit guidelines. I ignored this consensus per Notability guidelines. Notability is the only type of guideline that skeptic teams can not kill by consensus.

Rather than so much as lift a finger to help split the article team skeptic used every possible method and every excuse other than the split criteria to troll the process while crying about the way I avoided "scrutiny". Of course I did! If we look at Sandsteins edit log he has soooooo many contributions he effectively avoids scrutiny himself. I cant possibly read all that? Or can I?

AFD is suppose to be the point where the team of anti-pseudoscience crusaders have to use edit guidelines. In stead the admin deleted by consensus. (he was trying to clean up the backlog we should add) Asking for clarification, from the closing admin (we used irc), and by means of a deletion review is entirely sensible. Not reading it and requiring an account is not. Specially not in that order.

This is not to defend myself but to illustrate the victim blaming routine. How can Sandstein, being an administrator, need further tools to dispose of IP editors? Look how his argument is that I edited fringe topics, as if this should be sufficient evidence of my wrong doings?

If this is how the sanctions are being used, then it is not worth having them in general, in this specific case, using them outside the scope of pseudoscience seems even less useful.

note: It strikes me as odd for the committee to try to rule if something is pseudoscience or not. I think, if you have some precognition about a topic you should use the article talk page and provide reliable sources that make your vision evident.

Thanks for your time.

response to Robert McClenon

Sandstein explained why he mistakenly (but understandably) assumed I have an account, AFTER THAT you write this: [3]

The IP editor who filed the arbitration clarification request states that he or she has an account but edits from the IP address. There is no requirement to create an account in order to edit Wikipedia (except that editing semi-protected articles such as [[cold fusion]] requires an auto-confirmed account). However, Wikipedia policies do state that intentionally editing logged out is inappropriate, as it avoids scrutiny, and may be a means for topic-ban evasion or block evasion. I will ask a two-part question. First, do any of the IP addresses editing this talk page have accounts? If so, why are you editing logged out? Second (as I have asked before), is there a good reason why any IP addresses who do not have accounts choose not to create accounts (which would permit editing a semi-protected article)?

I repeat: I don't have an account. This is not what the article talk page is for and not what this request for clarification is about.

"A request for amendment or clarification was filed with the ArbCom, requesting a clarification that cold fusion is not pseudoscience and so not subject to discretionary sanctions. Since a Request for Comments is currently open on this page, the ArbCom request appears to be an effort to bypass the consensus process. The proper vehicle for determining whether cold fusion is, within Wikipedia, considered pseudoscience is the RFC.

In the comment before that you write:[4]

"The choice of those categories was not a trick nor an effort to steer the result, because it is exactly what is defined by ARBCOM."

You are trying to have it both ways.

"The article has been under semi-protection due to disruptive editing by unregistered editors for a long term."
21:20, 18 June 2012‎ Dennis Brown Protected Cold fusion: Persistent sock puppetry See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ScienceApologist

Staged by skeptics?

It is argued that the 400 skeptics, with watchlist and forum shopping is not enough to protect a locked article from lone newbies. Skeptics who evidently don't even read what the editor writes anymore and refuse all outsider contributions. I'm not here to be persecuted without reason, neither is anyone else. That is why I request clarification.

84.106.11.117 (talk) 19:08, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

84.106.11.117 is an IP address active since 16 June 2014 with few contributions, mostly relating to fringe-y topics such as alien abduction. On 11 July, they requested a deletion review of the article Fleischmann-Pons experiment, which relates to Cold fusion, which is in my layperson's understanding a fringe science topic. In the review request, 84.106.11.117 wrote that "I should note I'm not a new user, I just edit from my ip." As an administrator working at WP:DRV, I summarily closed the review request, suggesting that in discretionary sanctions topic areas where sanctions such as topic bans have been imposed, in view of WP:SCRUTINY, established editors should not make undeletion requests while logged out. I also alerted 84.106.11.117 about the discretionary sanctions applying to pseudo- and fringe science topics. In response, 84.106.11.117 copied the same alert notice onto my talk page and made this request for clarification, the point of which I don't quite see. In view of subsequent statements by 84.106.11.117 such as [5], it appears likely to me that we are being trolled by a returning, possibly previously sanctioned editor.  Sandstein  07:14, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, as long as we are here already: Would it be an appropriate use of discretionary sanctions, under these circumstances, to restrict the person using the address 84.106.11.117 from editing pseudo- and fringe science topics except with their main account (if they are not banned or blocked from doing so already)?  Sandstein  07:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Roger Davies and Seraphimblade: I was probably unclear. I agree that editing only as an IP is allowed and that we shouldn't force anyone to create an account. But I understood the statement by 84.106.11.117 to mean that they already have an account. My question was whether they might legitimately be directed to use that existing account when editing in the topic area covered by sanctions. Otherwise they might be able to avoid any sanctions that might apply to them under their existing account.  Sandstein  11:44, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

I watch Cold fusion and there is often commentary at Talk:Cold fusion regarding a possible new development—something which in the future may validate CF as a new energy source. Wikiversity was mentioned and I had a very quick look and found recently-edited pages like these:

Wikiversity is nothing to do with Wikipedia, but the activity suggests to me that discretionary sanctions in the CF area need to continue. Whether of not CF should properly be called "pseudoscience" can be debated elsewhere as that is not relevant to whether the topic should be subject to discretionary sanctions. Any new energy source with many enthusiastic supporters but no usable power should be treated as if it were pseudoscience at Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 09:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon

I oppose any request for the ArbCom to intervene and remove the pseudoscience discretionary sanctions from cold fusion. The article has been under semi-protection due to disruptive editing by unregistered editors for a long term. The talk page has been also disruptively edited, including personal attacks on skeptical editors, by unregistered editors. (There was also an edit war on the talk page, something unusual, where an unregistered editor began adding archived material, which was removed, and a revert war ensued.) I have also been watching the article and its talk page, and it has been more civil since editors have been templating the participants as to discretionary sanctions. The unregistered editors have been repeatedly asked if there is a reason why they choose not to create accounts. The usual response is either no response or incivility. This is to the point where the requirement to assume good faith is stretched, and there is reason to think that the unregistered editors are editing logged out either to create the appearance of greater numbers or because they are sockpuppets of a blocked or banned user. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Request for Comments at Talk:Cold fusion in process to determine consensus as to which of the four ArbCom-defined categories cold fusion should be categorized as. This request, to ask the ArbCom to intervene, may be an attempts to bypass the consensus process, which is going against the unregistered editors who are proponents of cold fusion. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I request that this clarification request be denied, because the RFC is the proper way to determine whether cold fusion is pseudoscience, but that the incoming boomerang be allowed to return, and that the filing party, who has been properly notified, be either topic-banned from cold fusion, or blocked, or both. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since the IP in question states that they do have a registered account, but choose to edit logged out, the remedy proposed by User:Sandstein is appropriate. There is no requirement to create an account (although creating an account would permit editing the semi-protected page), but there is a policy against intentionally editing logged out when one has an account, and the IP admits to doing exactly that. That statement is relevant to the concern stated below of two arbitrators. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:14, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On further reading, I have comments about the statement by the OP: "I should note I'm not a new user, I just edit from my ip." First, that statement was apparently misunderstood by Sandstein and by me. If the OP did not mean that he was an existing registered user, then he does have a right to edit from the IP address. Second, however, that statement that he is not a new user is incorrect. He has made 32 edits since 16 June, which qualifies as a new user compared to experienced editors. I will still ask, as I have at Talk: Cold fusion, whether there is a compelling reason why unregistered editors at Cold fusion choose not to create accounts (which would permit them to edit the semi-protected article) and instead persistent in making edit requests (sometimes amounting to edit demands) on the talk page. If the IP does not have a registered account, then the IP is permitted to edit. In any case, the request for a clarification by the ArbCom appears to be an attempt to game the system by asking the ArbCom to bypass the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cardamon

84.106.11.117 is likely the same individual as 84.104.135.141, 84.106.9.95, 84.106.26.81, 84.107.128.52, and possibly others, going back to at least 2009. I notice 84.104.135.141 was blocked [6] in December, 2009, and that 84.106.26.81 has two blocks [7].

This series of IPs has POV - pushed on a number of fringe topics, including on Cold fusion since April, 2009. Cardamon (talk) 21:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the IP, as 84.107.128.52, was warned of the existence of discretionary sanctions on fringe/pseudoscience subjects by Robert McClenon [8], on June 23, 2014. This was a few weeks before the warning by Sandstein of which the IP complains above. Cardamon (talk) 23:25, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Second Quantization

I'm not following the full case or what has preceded this, but I gently remind the arbitrators that I already brought up the ambiguities in an older wording of the text 2 years ago, and the text was clarified by motion after that [9]. Arbitration enforcement in the area of WP:FRINGE does not in any way hinge on something being viewed as pseudoscience rather than fringe science (or pathological science in the case of cold fusion), Second Quantization (talk) 21:23, 14 July 2014 (UTC) (formerly IRWolfie-)[reply]

Although I haven't looked at edits in the last 3 months, I think its worthy of note that in general over the years 84.* has made few if any useful edits or contributions ever (almost every edit being biased and being reverted etc). Second Quantization (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Noren

The same basic dispute as to what extent the prior Pseudoscience case applied (along with some other issues) was heard in 2009, and the Committee decided that "1) The cold fusion article, and parts of any other articles that are substantially about cold fusion, are subject to discretionary sanctions." It no longer matters whether Cold Fusion is included in the Pseudoscience case as the committee has ruled separately that Cold Fusion is subject to discretionary sanctions without regard to the Pseudoscience case. The committee later decided to merge the logging of that case with the pseudoscience case, but to my knowledge has not declared the 2009 ruling void.--Noren (talk) 06:51, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other user}

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Comment: Hi Sandstein. There's no requirement in policy for people to create accounts to edit with. What they are not allowed to do is evade scrutiny by editing from an IP when they have an account. It is possible to be an established IP editor.  Roger Davies talk 07:21, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sandstein; I don't think the IP topic-ban you suggest would be appropriate at all. As I said before, nothing in policy requires anyone to create an account before they can edit.  Roger Davies talk
  • I agree with Roger. It's forbidden to edit anonymously to evade scrutiny on one's account, but it's allowed to just not have an account and edit anonymously. There's no precedent for forcing someone to create an account and I don't like the idea of creating such a precedent in this way. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:02, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've been reviewing the language of the case. The current remedy authorizing DS reads as follows:

    14) Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all articles relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.

This remedy, and the accompanying principles outlined in the case, make it clear to me that it is appropriate for cold fusion to be considered subject to this decision. I see no need to amend or clarify the remedy or other aspects of the case.
As to The IP editing, I can't see that we can do anything about that unless we knew for a fact that the person operating from the IP was also the operator of a named account that was subject to sanctions already. I suppose a case could also be made that if they do have an account they are using a good hand/bad hand strategy to avoid scrutiny, but again without having at least some idea of the identity of the named account I don't know how we could arrive at any sort of actionable conclusion. On a personal level I do believe that one of these two scenarios is the most likely explanation, but without further evidence I don't see what we can do about it. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I ask the 84... IP to advise us if he or she has ever been subject to any sanctions or warnings for editing in this topic-area. This information can be provided via e-mail if a serious privacy issue is involved. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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