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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AlexandrDmitri (talk | contribs) at 19:41, 18 August 2012 (→‎Motion (Eastern European mailing list): enacted). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
Anachronist   16 June 2024 0/5/0
Rio Grande 223   19 June 2024 0/1/0
[edit]
Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Venezuelan politics 25 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Clarification request: The Troubles Motion (orig. case) 17 August 2012
Amendment request: Race and intelligence Motion (orig. case) 25 July 2012
Amendment request: Eastern European mailing list Motion (orig. case) 27 June 2012
Motion name Date posted
Block of Rp2006 18 June 2024

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
  • Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

To file a clarification or amendment request: (you must use this format!)

  1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
  2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
  3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
  4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
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Clarification request: The Troubles

Initiated by Cailil talk at 14:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
The Troubles arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Statement by Cailil

Per the closure of this WP:ARE thread I'm seeking clarification regarding whether enforcing sysops can impose Mandated External Review (MER) under the currect provisions for discretionary sanctions?
The above thread saw significant disruption both from long term and newer editors and it was felt by the admins at AE that MER would significantly help the topic area under the WP:TROUBLES probation.
AGK already commented on this[1] but felt this request for clarification appropriate--Cailil talk 14:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Penwhale

I actually hold the belief that MER should not be randomly given out as a part of discretionary sanctions.

Putting an editor on MER requires other non-involved editors to look into those proposed edits. It takes much more time and effort for MER to work, and I believe that such declarations should not be left under discretionary sanctions.

I would like to propose an alternative that MER can be sanctioned either by ArbCom approval, or as a community opinion at the appropriate locations because this way more people will know that said user is under MER (and thus require more scrutiny regarding edits).

Also, I would like to propose that the list of users under MER should have its own subpage (instead of being grouped with other editing restrictions), because the editors in question is not under a topic ban (and a different page/section/etc would make it easier to track). - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 15:24, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TC

I agree with Brad that any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project surely includes MER. I'm not sure, however, that formalizing MER right now with a motion is needed. Of the three editors placed on MER in ARBFLG2, two are currently topic-banned, and the remaining one (Colipon) hasn't edited much since the case closed. If we limit MER to the Falun Gong area only, it is unlikely that we'll have enough data to make an informed decision for a long, long time. I believe that it is best to allow AE admins to employ MER in other areas under the catchall provision for now, and reconsider whether to formalize MER as a discretionary sanction once we have enough data. T. Canens (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I concur with AGK, Mandated External Review can be imposed under discretionary sanctions. PhilKnight (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The original thought behind this would be that MER would have to be explicitly authorized for use in an area (that is, beyond "simple" discretionary sanctions). Further, we've yet to formalize the sanction for use in other areas. I'd meant to do this with the page you linked to after Falun Gong 2, but got tied up and forgotten about it (thanks for the reminder). So my thoughts would be "No, the Committee needs to explicitly say 'MER can be used in the Troubles area'" but am open to it being merged into the rest of discretionary sanctions. I'll open up a motion to formalize that user page once I get home, that should help here. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 16:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • With respect to topic-areas under discretionary sanctions, Wikipedia:Discretionary sanctions states that "the sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to a topic within the area of conflict or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." (emphasis added). I think that "mandated external review" falls in a topic-area would fall within "any other means the imposing administrator believes are reasonable necessary"—or another way of looking at it is that the user in question is topic-banned from making edits in the topic-area unless they are cleared by MER first. So, as a formal matter, I think MER could be imposed on editors in "The Troubles" area or any others subject to DS. That doesn't mean, however, that admins should rush ahead into doing so in a wide variety of areas. It might make sense to begin with this new and creative approach to problematic topics and editors in a few areas (Falun Gong being the first) and develop some experience with whether it is a successful approach, before expanding it too widely. An RfC on the parameters, at some point, might also be useful. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Motions

For the purposes of these motions, there are 14 active arbitrators, so 8 votes is a majority.

Formalization of Mandated External Review as an independent sanction

Note: This motion is an alternative to motion 2.

1) Mandated External Review is formally adopted as an independent form of sanction which must be explicitly authorized for use by the Arbitration Committee within a given area of conflict. A page shall be created at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Mandated external review with the contents of this page, (Note: update the permalink as needed when changes are made to that page) excepting those portions highlighted in green, in order to provide further information and guidance on the use of this sanction.

Support
  1. Second choice. While this was the original intent of MER (hence why it's still on the table), NYB makes a good point in that the rather broadly-sweeping language of discretionary sanctions would automatically include just about anything, including MER. Also the independent sanction wording is rather redundant to discretionary sanctions, which in hindsight seems a bit silly. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Second choice to settle the question, but prefer the alternative, subject to my comments above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Prefer the other motion. PhilKnight (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Nope, just creates more work and takes tools out of AE admins hands. Courcelles 22:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
Comments
  • Passage of this motion would amount to a "no" answer to Cailil's original question. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Formalization of Mandated External Review as a form of discretionary sanction

Note: This motion is an alternative to motion 1.

2) Mandated External Review is formally adopted as a form of discretionary sanction. A page shall be created at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Mandated external review with the contents of this page, (Note: update the permalink as needed when changes are made to that page) excepting those portions highlighted in blue, in order to provide further information and guidance on the use of this sanction.

Support
  1. First choice per above. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. PhilKnight (talk) 19:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. This is, IMO, the status quo. Courcelles 22:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Jclemens (talk) 00:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  5. But subject to my comments above, the gist of which is that we ought to proceed deliberately in introducing and evaluating this new remedy/sanction formulation, rather than just introducing in all DS topic-areas in a blunderbuss fashion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I don't think we are in a position to explicitly include this yet, given that we only have had it in place for about a month on one case, and have no data on whether or not it is effective or useful, or if it is ineffective and harmful. I think it is inherent in the existing discretionary sanctions, and I have no opposition to a separate page (although who exactly would be watching it is an interesting question). Risker (talk) 17:56, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
Comments
  • Passage of this motion would amount to a "yes" answer to Cailil's original question. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Falun Gong 2 amended

Note: This motion is dependent upon either motion 1 or motion 2 passing.

3) Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2 is amended as follows:

  1. Remedy 4, "Mandated external review", is stricken.
  2. Remedies 5-7, "Homunculus subject to mandated external review", "Ohconfucius subject to mandated external review", and "Colipon subject to mandated external review", are amended to read: "<Editor's Name> is subject to mandated external review as outlined at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Mandated external review, with respect to articles relating to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed. Application of mandated external review in this subject area may only be appealed directly to the Arbitration Committee via a request for amendment."
Support
  1. Tying up loose ends. The added sentence at the end is to override the standard appeals process described at the discretionary sanctions page or MER page (whichever gets passed), which permits appeal via the AE noticeboard. In light of the fact MER was applied by remedy and not by a single administrator, it's probably unnecessary, but avoids the need to clarify later. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Hersford's point as to why this is needed is accurate. Courcelles 00:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Jclemens (talk) 00:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per Hersfold's reply to my question below. PhilKnight (talk) 10:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Housekeeping; not strictly necessary, but will clarify things at best, and be harmless at worst. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Per my oppose above. I'd rather see if this actually works before we institutionalize it. Risker (talk) 18:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
Comments
  • I'm not entirely sure this is necessary. PhilKnight (talk) 19:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The reason I feel this is necessary is to ensure consistent enforcement of MER across all places where it's being applied. If, down the road, we make changes to the formalized version of MER, these editors would still be subject to the terms outlined in the Falun Gong 2 final decision, since presently the remedies applying MER to them specify "as outlined in remedy 4." Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 20:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request: Race and intelligence

Initiated by The Devil's Advocate (talk) at 22:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Race and intelligence arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Review remedies 6.1 and 7.1.
  2. Review remedy 1.1.
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

  • Review remedies 6.1 and 7.1 (standard language).
  • Modification of ban to be a standard topic ban from Race and intelligence-related edits broadly construed and a route for appeal of the sanction clearly outlined.

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

My concerns mostly relate to the wording that bans "participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic." As read this ban would seem to prevent any discussion of the conduct of the 1,000+ editors who have contributed to the Race and intelligence article, even when it has nothing to do with the subject. However, from my reviewing of their contributions it seems the only time these editors have commented on the conduct of editors from the topic area has been when that conduct directly concerned the topic area in some way.

This wording greatly enables the kind of disruptive gaming sanctions should be looking to prevent and this appears to have already occurred. Following an amendment to the Review case regarding Mathsci, an IP sock of an editor apparently obsessed with Math left a comment on Trev's talk page. Math removed the comment and Trev restored it, politely asking that Math not edit his userspace. Math reverts, citing WP:BAN, and suggests Trev ask an Arb about it. Trev restores the comment and reiterates his desire that Math not do this. Another editor reverts him, an IP restores the comment, and the previous editor removes the comment again.

Following Math's suggestion Trev commented at the page of Jclemens to object to these actions in his userspace and asking for advice. Mathsci jumps into the discussion, calling Trev Ferahgo, claiming that Trev had made a "sudden miraculous return" and that he was engaging in conduct "indistinguishable" from "Ferahgo's other friend SightWatcher", knowing Trev's actions were actually prompted by the above situation. After expressing his frustration with Math's conduct towards him, Math seizes on Trev's mention of R&I to say "Someone could easily report him now at WP:AE" and a report was filed mere minutes later.

A few days later Math created an ANI discussion to object to other editors restoring comments from that same sockmaster. He references Trev's conduct obliquely by talking of his "perseverance . . . in pursuing those operating proxy-editors." One day later Trev comments merely to say Math had also removed comments from his userspace against his wishes and that he should stop doing that. Math immediately suggests administrative action by stating "he is breaking the terms of that ban by commenting here when his name has not been mentioned", conveniently worded to disregard the allusion to Trev's conduct just a day before. Just as before an AE case is filed in response to Math's comments almost immediately with the filer responding to the ANI comment to note the case has been created, which results in a block.

During Trev's appeal, Math seemingly insinuates that he had nothing to do with that AE case. Not long after that Math once more goes in to remove comments from Trev's talk page, sparking another edit war in Trev's userspace that lead to Trev losing talk page privileges. After the block expired, Trev filed a request for arbitration regarding the circumstances of the block and the removal of comments from banned editors by Math and others, with Math immediately responding with an AE case, claiming falsely that Trev is forbidden from even mentioning Math's name.

This dispute with Math illustrates rather clearly how the sanction has proven ineffective as Math can directly provoke Trev into a block-worthy response without fear of Trev reporting him for it, essentially encouraging such disruption. I believe reducing the sanction to a normal topic ban will prevent this situation from repeating with Trev or Sight.

@Pen I do not think an interaction ban of any kind is necessary at this point, because the issue, from my perspective, is that Math knew his conduct could not be reported by Trev without Trev getting blocked for violating the ban. Allowing Trev the ability to comment on Math's conduct outside R&I means, I believe, that he will feel compelled to avoid interacting with Trev because there will be no incentive. Rather than having a restriction that presumes Trev or Sight will engage in bad behavior outside R&I, despite no evidence being presented to support that presumption, making it so that they have true freedom of movement outside R&I will more clearly signal whether they will or can edit constructively elsewhere on Wikipedia.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger It is not the removal of comments from banned editors itself that is the issue, but the edit-warring and resulting discussions about it being used to restrict Trev's activity on Wikipedia. Math could have done any number of things to prevent a situation where Trev gets blocked, but he chose to poke at Trev repeatedly until he said "Stop it!" and then Math basically responds with "BAN HIM!" Look at the discussion on Jclemens' talk page. Math suggested Trev talk to an Arb about the issue, and when Trev did, Math repeatedly accused Trev of talking to Jclemens at the behest of a banned editor, when he would know full well that Trev was talking to Jclemens at Math's own suggestion. After repeatedly referring to Ferahgo and the proxy-editing allegations (including a comment where he implies Trev is Ferahgo), Trev responded by saying Math's conduct keeps him from getting away from R&I drama and Math said "someone" could file an AE case against Trev because R&I was not mentioned in the discussion. He did the same thing at AN as Trev commented after Math clearly referred to the proxy-editing allegations against Trev, but Math said Trev was in violation of the ban because his name was not mentioned in the discussion. That kind of conduct is textbook gaming. The point of my request for these two amendments is partly to make it less likely that such gaming can occur.

I would also reiterate that the wording "worked in the topic" is so broad that any editor who has made a few edits to an R&I article would qualify, meaning the restriction as it stands effectively leaves Trev and Sight on edge about whether they can complain about the conduct of any user as that editor may have a few minor contributions to an R&I article. A restriction that effectively demands Trev and Sight memorize an exhaustive list of contributors to a topic area to know whose conduct they can comment about without fear of sanction is punitive to the extreme.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to reiterate that the banned editor comments are not the issue. Again, even if Math feels his actions were justified, Trev not being able to object to this conduct in his own userspace and Math seeming to exploit that restriction in discussions about the conduct to provoke Trev into a blockable action is the inherent problem being noted here. I believe how to handle the restoration of contributions from banned editors is the kind of issue that should be referred to the community, and not decided by the Arbs in even this limited sense as it would represent a rejection of a long-accepted standard.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Roger, on several occasions now I have said that my argument is not based on some opinion about the legitimacy of removing comments from banned editors ([2] [3] [4] [5]). Continuing to say my request for amendment serves to "characterize Mathsci's reversion of harassment by a banned editor as gaming" seems rather inflammatory. Would you please address my concerns by taking my own stated reasons for the request into consideration, rather than making claims about my reasons that have been repeatedly rebuffed?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AGK, Mathsci is certainly not a minor contributor to the topic area and his actions are what prompted my concerns. Your proposed change would not resolve those concerns by any measure. As long as editors such as Mathsci are able to force interactions with these editors while those with whom they are forcing interactions are unable to complain about those interactions, I do not see any reason to believe the issue with the restriction will be resolved.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I will say concerning the comment from Jclemens, part of the reason I believe a simple topic ban is the most appropriate change is because making it a mutual interaction ban would be difficult to enact in a way that would not sanction editors who were not part of the issue. My belief is that interaction bans should only be used in lieu of a topic ban or for when problematic interactions extend beyond a single topic area. Combining a topic ban with an interaction ban, one-way or mutual, when the conduct issues only concern a specific topic area is restricting the editor more than is necessary to resolve the dispute, in my opinion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hipocrite

What R&I needs more than anything is another proxy editor for the previous proxy editors. Hipocrite (talk) 23:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

The effect of Amendment 1 would be to enable SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2 to discuss the conduct of editors connected with the topic. In practice, that means these two editors would be entitled to initiate discussions about Mathsci on a variety of talk pages and noticeboards. It is hard to see how that would help the encyclopedia, and I am unaware of any reason to believe that such monitoring is required. At any rate, the R&I cases have raised Mathsci's profile to an extent that plenty of established editors are available should Mathsci's conduct need comment.

Mathsci has two problems:

  • Remedy 1.1. This appears to be satisfactorily resolved, and Mathsci's contributions show a lot of good article development and no battlefield conduct, possibly apart from the following problem.
  • A long term abuser is known to harass Mathsci. The problems started long ago (disagreements were at Butcher group in June 2009, but started before that) and were not related to R&I in any way.

The banned user now has an easy method of attacking Mathsci. All they have to do is notify an R&I editor about some matter (that event was a case request that was removed 17 minutes later by Courcelles). The banned user has noticed that some editors will restore their comments after they have been removed per WP:DENY (diff, diff), and the community has divided opinions on the desirability of removing comments by banned users. That guarantees a pointless discussion which can be initiated by the banned user whenever they choose.

If Arbcom decides that editors should not remove unhelpful comments that were intended to harass a productive editor, the banned user can create permanent memorials to celebrate their achievement. That issue does not need input from R&I editors (and if it were vital, they could email Arbcom). Johnuniq (talk) 01:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Rue Cardinale is a new sock and needs to be blocked. Clearly the banned user is trying to provoke conflict, and the only sensible procedure is to apply DENY by removing their junk. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Silverseren: Your comment at "03:08, 31 July 2012" asserts your right to restore comments from a banned user, but I do not see any explanation for how that helps the encyclopedia—why would you want to do that?

This clarification request has raised two unrelated issues: (1) what are appropriate responses relating to the R&I issue, and (2) what are appropriate responses relating to the banned user who has harassed Mathsci for over three years (the banned user has no interest in R&I and is merely using these discussions to poke Mathsci). Talk:Silverseren now has a completely superfluous "notification" signed by a sock with a username that matches the street where Mathsci lives—it is rare to see such a clear case of harassment.

I saw an early disagreement between the banned user and Mathsci (from a discussion at ANI in 2009), and the initial interaction showed a good editor (Mathsci) going out of their way to provide helpful answers to questions from the user (see here). That is after an ANI report by Mathsci against the user (ANI archive), which indicates that one source of friction involved a mistaken belief by the user regarding Mathsci's username. The best (and only) way of handling the banned user is by a strict application of WP:DENY (I hate having to provide all this material which will only excite more trouble).

We should assist good editors (see Mathsci's contributions), and should do all that is possible to prevent disruption by banned users. Johnuniq (talk) 04:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Penwhale

I am sort of torn about this one. But I believe that MathSci and Trev needs to stay away from each other, as much as possible. Thus, if remedy is changed to topic ban, some sort of user-talk interaction ban (at the very least) needs to be present. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 11:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vecrumba

R&I would be much calmer if Mathsci stuck to content (on WP) and completely recused themselves from role of policeman/enforcer (anywhere on WP, not just R&I). It's time for his holier than thou to stop. Do we really all have time to keep reading through his enforcement-related litanies?VєсrumЬа ►TALK 23:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (yet another user)

Amendment 2

  • Review remedy 1.1.
  • Include an explicit warning that further battleground conduct by Mathsci towards editors that is related to the topic will be cause for discretionary sanctions.

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

It seems that Mathsci does not understand that the standard regime of discretionary sanctions under Remedy 5.2, which replaced Remedy 5.1, would also apply to his activities. He has claimed that WP:AE can only be used to report edits related to R&I on articles and their talk pages, or edits that violate a sanction and that he can thus only be sanctioned through a request for amendment. The following are some instances where he has made this mistaken claim:

Making it clear to Math that his conduct related to R&I anywhere on Wikipedia could be cited at AE as the basis for sanctions would seemingly help, together with the above amendment, in preventing Math from continuing in this disruptive conduct and allow these editors some breathing room to try and be productive elsewhere.

@Math The request I am making is so fundamentally different from the requests for arbitration that your claim it is "not very different" is just bizarre. As to the predictable accusation of proxy-editing, if you also wish to be "in contact off-wiki" with me that would be fine. Got mountains of evidence you wish to share privately? Feel free. Door's open dude. Oh, and sorry for leaving a notification on your talk page. I was on auto-pilot and forgot about your prior request.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I really want to keep this statement short and respect the privacy of the communication so I will give you the cliff's notes version of that rather anticlimactic e-mail. He feels the arbitration request was respecting what was said by the Arbs, he preferred on-wiki suggestions other than the one I previously made on-wiki and am making here, and said some inconsequential stuff about you that I have not alluded to here at all. All in all, I do what I want.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@John, I understand the desire to deny recognition, but there are more ways to deny recognition than RBI. Sometimes a much more concise and successful approach is if you remove the R. Certain things just aren't worth clicking undo.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Brad, I am not suggesting some sort of new remedy for Math. Effectively my suggestion with this second amendment is redundant as Remedy 5.2 already says any editor making any edits related to R&I anywhere on Wikipedia can be sanctioned if those edits violate policy. Basically my suggestion is to drive the point home by adding something like "and warned that continued battleground behavior anywhere on Wikipedia relating to R&I broadly construed could lead to sanctions under Remedy 5.2", or something to that effect, to his admonishment. That way he is not under the impression that his actions in userspace, or any other non-article space, are exempt from discretionary sanctions.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@CIreland I don't think that's a very good idea. Just like the current restriction against Trev and Sight it would be so broad as to be just another cause for useless drama. How does someone know the edit belongs to a specific sockmaster? If someone is unaware of the restriction how do we react? There is no conceivable way such a new restriction would do anything but create more problems.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:43, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Repetitive attempts to divert this into a discussion about a banned editor should not be indulged by the Arbs. I have only mentioned the issue here to help illustrate the inherent problem with the restriction against Trev and Sight. That they are not allowed to object to an individual directly engaging them in a combative manner is the problem here, regardless of whether one feels the combativeness is justified or not. Math's mistaken belief that he cannot be subject to discretionary sanctions as long as he avoids editing articles and talk pages relating to the topic area is another matter that needs to be addressed.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger I am attempting to minimize disruption to this request. Getting more editors to comment here is not helping in that respect, considering the issue you are raising is not really relevant to the request I am making (Math and Trev could have been fighting over the color of Master Chief's armor for all that I care). Can you honestly say right now that Trev being unable to comment on Math's conduct, when Math can directly engage Trev in a combative manner without worrying about his conduct being reported by Trev, is really serving to prevent disruption? Regardless of what prompted the situation, the situation itself did not play out in a way that suggests the restriction is helping to minimize disruption. I believe the best way to prevent disruption to the project would be to consider my two amendment requests, and not support any unprecedented restriction that disregards a long-standing community consensus.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Math You can't just say "this person is definitely a sock" on their user page, or on your user page, without ever having an SPI filed that confirms your allegations. I know from reviewing the history that you do not have a perfect record when it comes to accusing people of being socks, so I don't think anyone should just take your word for it. However, this is not the place for that discussion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just like to add that I would have asked on Math's talk page for him to remove these allegations or file an SPI to substantiate them, but I am respecting his desire that I not comment on his talk page.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Math, if you wish to discuss this matter with me, you can comment on my talk page. I am not going to debate the quality of a classical music article in a request for amending a case that pertains to Race and Intelligence. I will say that you should be mindful of a saying about glass houses.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@John, Trev clearly answered Roger's question at the very beginning of his initial statement.
@Math, the comment restored by the Echigo sock was a previous suggestion for a legitimate clean start and made no direct reference to you. Afterwards, Sinebot mistakenly added the new sock's signature and Trev removed that signature.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@John, did you read the rest of the discussion at Jclemens' talk page? Mathsci's comments there were not exactly about Echigo mole. As to your quote from Roger Davies, I should note that during the review case he touched on the issue of Mathsci removing comments by the very same banned editor from the talk pages of other editors and said:

While reverting posts by a banned user is an option, Mathsci shouldn't be doing so from user talk pages in the face of the user's opposition to him doing so. Accordingly, I don't think the latest revert yesterday was either wise or appropriate, especially as the post was neither extreme nor offensive nor a personal attack on Mathsci. This is provocative battleground behaviour.

Honestly, I have been a tad perplexed by Roger's comments below since they seem to be inconsistent with his comments on the review case.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mathsci

I have already made several statements in private to the arbitration committee prior to this request being posted concerning the interactions between TrevelyanL85A2 and The Devil's Advocate. Apart from omitting all mention of MastCell, this request does not seem very different from TrevelyanL85A2's very recently rejected RfAr and also not very different from the RfAr of Keystone Crow that was removed almost immediately by Courcelles. The only thing that might be worth pointing out here is that The Devil's Advocate has been in contact off-wiki with TrevelyanL85A2. The Devil's Advocate is also himself under a 6 month topic ban under WP:ARB911. Mathsci (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My content edits are disjoint from the topic area covered by WP:ARBR&I and have been for two years. Nothing new has happened since the recent review apart from the reappearance on wikipedia of two of the parties that chose not to comment during the review. Arbitrators, in particular Casliber and Elen of the Roads, suggested that arbcom should be kept informed of any problems from the DeviantArt group of editors. The on-wiki and then off-wiki communications between The Devil's Advocate and TrevelyanL95A2 were of that kind.[10][11] At the moment The Devil's Advocate seems to be acting on behalf of TrevelyanL85A2, after communicating at least once in private. The banned wikihounder Echigo mole/A.K.Nole is a red herring, a red herring that appears to be on holiday at the moment. Mathsci (talk) 02:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Echigo mole/A.K.Nole was discussed at length during the review along with Mikemikev in response to one of the five questions of Roger Davies. There is no reason why the review should be revisited just because The Devil's Advoacate missed it first time round. He does not seem fully aware of the background and has preferred to take private advice on the review from TrevelyanL85A2 who, although undoubtedly aware of what was happening in the review, chose not to participate even after being added as a party. Like the DeviantArt group, including the two site-banned users Occam and Ferahgo, The Devil's Advocate has chosen to concentrate matters on the banned user Echigo mole/A.K.Nole, a long term wikihounder, with a whole sleeping sock farm created in 2009. Echigo mole is engaged in acts of deception, harassment and disruption. The responses above of the Devil's Advocate do not seem helpful. The Devil's Advocate made a conscious decision to engage in private discussions with a topic banned user on matters he knew could not be discussed on wikipedia. That private exchange unfortunately now connects The Devil's Advocate with other members of the DeviantArt group, including the site-banned editors Occam and Ferahgo. On the talk page of an arbitrator,[12][13] The Devil's Advocate has also pressed to see private evidence provided during the review (i.e. by Occam and Ferahgo). To my knowledge nobody except arbitrators has been shown that evidence. Apart from one exception fairly late on, I was not shown any submissions provided by Occam or Ferahgo. On-wikipedia and off-wikipedia (on Wikipediocracy) The Devil's Advocate has made a series of statements about parties involved in the review which show either confusion or a mireading of the review and the preceding request for amendment. That might be an accident on his part. For example during the review historic versions of the Fur Affinity attack pages were displayed (here, here. here) but The Devil's Advocate, from his statements on Wikipediocracy, only had access to later versions, after offensive comments had been removed. I am not aware of other circumstances where a single user has made a request for a review to be rerun after he missed it first time round. That would appear to be a waste of everybody's time. The Devil's Advocate has gone further by involving himself in private communications with part of the DeviantArt group and making a series of unjustifiable assertions. Perhaps that was not his intention, but his submission favours banned disruptive trolls, known to arbitators, other checkusers and administrators, over established editors engaged in improving this encyclopedia. Mathsci (talk) 07:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Echigo mole has unfortunately become active again as Rue Cardinale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Editors should be aware that the username Rue Cardinale was chosen because it is the road in which I live in Aix-en-Provence; in the past sockpuppets of Echigo mole, now blocked, have attempted to write hoax or undue content about that street on wikipedia. The edits of this particular sock troll, blocked indefinitely by FPaS, were removed from User talk:TrevelyanL85A2 by Hipocrite and then restored by TrevelyanL85A2 with a bizarre edit summary.[14] MastCell's analysis of TrevelyanL85A2's edits (vis-a-vis Echigo mole) hits the nail on the head. Why are people wasting time with this nonsense? Penwhale, you could easily have double checked with FPaS. Mathsci (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note also that TrevelyanL85A2 had already been informed about this RfAm by The Devil's Advocate (see above). Mathsci (talk) 22:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Examined individually, some might argue that all the edits of Rue Cardinale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) were fine. Presumably they could say the same about the edits of Keystone Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). On the other hand those accounts were blocked indefinitely fairly quickly by administrators, per WP:CLUE and WP:DUCK. Going back on-topic, the only issue that has arisen here with any relevance to the arbcom review is the deliberate bypassing of a topic ban or a ban through a proxy-editor, through email or other off-wiki communication. Mathsci (talk) 04:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • AQFK has claimed elsewhere that I had edit-warred on User talk:TrevelyanL85A2.[15] The editing history of that page shows that not to be the case.[16] Note that AQFK comes to this page in response to the trolling edits of Echigo mole as Rue Cardinale. Good grief. Mathsci (talk) 04:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Devil's Advocate left problematic comments on Newyorkbrad's talk page.[17] I reported those at WP:WQA where another report about TDA had recently been filed. Only in death heavily edited my comment there, without any justification. Prior to posting here Only in death posted twice on my talk page, once after being explicitly requested not to, because I was (and still am) busy adding quite tricky mathematical content spread over several articles. The edits of Only in death were unhelpful and discourteous on WP:WQA; he is now treating this arbcom page as if it were WP:ANI. Ah yes, ... that famous peanut gallery. Mathsci (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Only in death, please do not remove editors' comments on wikipedia pages, whether you agree with them or not. Doing so is just disruptive and can result in blocks. You can remove them on your talk page, but not elsewhere, except in exceptional circumstance. Per WP:DENY, that includes malicious trolling by idenitified community banned editors. I removed all the fake RfAR notifications in June by Keystone Crow that had not already been removed by the recipients (e.g. MastCell). Mathsci (talk) 10:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Roger: I have never banned people from editing my user talk page. When there is a more appropriate place for them to edit or if their edits are unhelpful, I politely request that they do not comment there. I think that happened with Andriabenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who turned out be a sockpuppet of a banned user. My talk page has been semiprotected at various stages because of abusive edits by either Mikemikev or Echigo mole. Although my memory is fuzzy about wikipedia in March, I think the protection then happened because of the horrific youtube links added by Mikemikev after the death of Steven Rubenstein. Since you ask. Mathsci (talk) 11:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • QFAK: there was no edit war, but you have continued to make exaggerated claims. There were two edits on May 27 to remove a trolling comment by an ipsock of Echigo mole from his standard IP range (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Echigo mole); and one edit on June 10 to remove the notification by Keystone Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) of an abusive RfAR that was deleted instaneously by Courcelles who simultaneously blocked the Echigo mole sock. Similar messages were removed by me from about 10 other user pages. Here once more is the edit history for [[user talk:once again: [18] Johnuniq removed the fake RfAr notification two further times in June after TrevelyanL85A2 restored it twice (with no clear benefit to either himself or wikipedia, as Johnuniq has said). Mathsci (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither AQFK not TDA has heeded the warning from Newyorkbrad. Both have repeated false claims of edit warring (see above). Both these editors have been subject to several arbcom restrictions before (in AQFK's case 6 months for 911 and and two years for CC). Neither of them know me from Adam, yet base their exaggerated rants on 2 edits by me in late May and early June. The recent edits of Rue Cardinale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), were reverted by others. But no, they are only interested in those two minor edits, both justified by WP:DENY. If that isn't trolling on arbcom pages, what is? Mathsci (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • TrevelyanL85A2's response is almost indistinguishable from the statements of Ferahgo-the-Assassin that led to her site ban. It can be safely be presumed that it was prepared in collaboration with her and Captain Occam. The most shocking part of TrevelyanL85A2's statement is his blithe endorsement of Echigo mole's editing as Keystone Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Echigo mole is a community banned editor and TrevelyanL85A2 is not at liberty to give him the thumbs up. (Just before his site-ban, Occam behaved similarly acting as a proxy for Grundle2600.) The second problem is with TrevelyanL85A2's mentioning of a "dispute". There is no dispute. There is, however, an explicit topic ban which prohibits TrevelyanL85A2 from agitating against me in an Occamesque way on wikipedia. He is doing so now. Presumably he expressed himself in the same way in his private discussions with TDA which preceded this meritless request. Neither of them should have engaged in that activity.[19] TrevelyanL85A2 seems to think he can interpret the rules of wikipedia as it suits him: it's all a big WP:GAME. But that is not how wikipedia works. It is primarily about creating scholarly articles to build a high quality encyclopedia; it is not a role-playing war game. Possibly on the advice of others, TrevelyanL85A2 chose not to comment in the review, when he was free to make any statements he wished (within reasonable bounds). That is not the case now. Using Roger Davies' question as a loophole to launch a full-blown Ferahgian attack on me, with fatuous claims about me, is not a good sign. Instead of condemning Echigo mole's harrassment, he has chosen to use Keystone Crow's RfAr as evidence against me. The idea that 3 meritless arbcom requests, two of them due to him and the first to a pernicous banned troll, must indicate something. Does TrevelyanL85A2 really think he can use the actions of a banned editor to make negative statements about me. It is hard to see any redeeming features in TrevelyanL85A2's editing. His account looks like a disruption-only account at the moment. Mathsci (talk) 04:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Devil's Advocate was asked to stop commenting here by Newyorkbrad. [20] Instead of heeding that warning, he wikilawyered on NYB's talk page [21] and continued his pro-Echigo mole campaign here.[22] Mathsci (talk) 06:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newyorkbrad (and other arbitrators): Thank you very much for this clarification, which is a welcome relief to me as the victim of Echigo mole. During the arbcom review I was specifically asked about harassment on wikipedia and I gave a detailed response concerning both Echigo mole and Mikemikev. There was no corresponding finding. That has left matters open for continued disruption connected with Echigo mole's activities, in particular Echigo mole's fake Rfar, TrevelyanL85A2's declined Rfar and this joint RfAm of The Devil's Advocate (apparently prepared in consultation with TrevelyanL85A2). In the event that there is a motion concerning Echigo mole, please could it make an explicit statement about the history of long term harassment and the way in which this person has systematically tried to create problems? (In the review I indicated that he had even given evidence in the original 2010 R&I case as "IP from Sheffield".) Since the closure of the review, quite a lot of time on wikipedia has been consumed by the renewed activity of Echigo mole. It unfortuantely requires vigilance on my part because of his penchant for leaving clues as to my real life identity, which other users will not necessarily pick up on as quickly as me. Thanks in advance, Mathsci (talk) 15:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Devil's Advocate was given a crystal clear warning by Newyorkbrad, as mentioned above. He has subsequently ignored that warning.[23] This problematic conduct is not very different from the disruption that precipitated his six month 911 topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • TrevelyanL85A2 seems to have broken his topic ban on his user talk page two more times now.[24][25] He appears to be breaking all the editing norms on wikipedia, including acting as a proxy for two site-banned users. He has written on his user talk page: " I don't know if I can get the arbitrators to understand the part of the problem for which Mathsci is responsible, but I want to try." That is a flagrant breach of his topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 22:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Devil's Advocate's latest edits concerning Echigo mole/A.K.Nole: Please could arbitrators instruct The Devil's Advocate to stop interfering with matters related to sockpuppets of Echigo mole/A.K.Nole? He removed Junior Wrangler from a list of suspected sockpuppets in the userspace of a declared alternative account where a provisional LTA file is stored (mainly before I had access to the tools to do searcher over IP ranges). Junior Wrangler's first edit to Spirella matches early A.K.Nole hoaxes, he edited Talk:Château of Vauvenargues; and the choice of username followed by low-level mathematics editing are typical A.K.Nole.[26] He also removed the "suspected sockpuppet" tag on User:Penny Birch.[27] This also seems to be an occarionally used, partially discarded account operated by Echigo mole. The timing of the creation is right, the choice of user name, the first edits like those of A.K.Nole and his friends (Kenilworth Terrace and Groomtech, first editing together as The Wiki House) concerned the University of Gloucestershire in Cheltenham. The editing on Talk:Château of Vauvenargues matches that of Junior Wrangler. The activities of both have been sporadic enough not to be susceptible to checkuser (like the editors creating hoaxes earlier this year on articles related to Aix-en-Provence and Rue Cardinale). The Devil's Advocate has been told to stay well away from anything concerning Echigo mole/A.K.Nole on wikipedia. Often the banned user's edits refer to my real life identity, sometimes my own publications or lectures. I don't really want The Devil's Advocate now digging about for details in edits which have not been deleted, unduly causing me distress and anxiety. That ahows no consideration for the problems connected with abusive wikihounding; in fact quitr the comtrary, these actions are disruptive and deliberately provocative, designed to cause offense. (That was already true of the Request for Amendment itself.) The Devil's Advocate should also stay out of the userspace of my alternative accounts. The instructions from Newyorkbrad on his talk page were very clear: that he should leave matters concerning Echigo mole/A.K.Nole well alone. At this stage, he seems to be doing the exact opposite of what arbitrators have requested him to do. He has needlessly made edits in the userspace of one of my alternative declared accounts reserved for recording information about Echigo mole socks and ip socks (in one edit summary The Devil's Advocate added the words WP:POLEMIC when removing a listed suspected sock). If he cannot avoid making edits like this related to Echigo mole and suspected socks, please could he now be blocked to stop further disruption and provocation? This has gone on long enough and it's only getting worse as he continues doing exactly the opposite of what he's been told. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • More nonsense from The Devil's Advocate.[28] In that diff, he makes negative comments about Clavier-Übung III, which I understand is regarded as a well written article. I have no idea why The Devil's Advocate feels that he has to follow me around on wikipedia, making negative remarks like this. It's quite unhelpful. Perhaps he's trying to emulate Echigo mole as a wikihounder? One is quite enough. Mathsci (talk) 23:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cla68's comments about my wikistalker seem unhelpful and clueless. I hope that Newyorkbrad's motion is now enacted so that there is no possibility that any form of this time-wasting RfAm can occur at a future date. Let sleeping dogs lie. Mathsci (talk) 19:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • TrevelyanL85A2's priorities seem misplaced as far as the interests of wikipedia are concerned. There is no reason to distinguish between different socks of the same banned user, e.g. the ipsock 94.197.162.237, the sock Keystone Crow or the sock Rue Cardinale. The two edits I made on May 27 and the one edit on June 10 are no longer under discussion. Two arbitrators have commented on how to handle Echigo mole's disruption. TrevelyanL85A2 appears not to have heeded their comments. Instead he has tried to reopen and prolong a discussion concerning Echigo mole and his other favourite topic. [29][30][31] Mathsci (talk) 08:08, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any edits in the IP ranges 94.197.1.1/16 and 94.196.1.1/16 that vaguely concern me have been made exclusively by Echigo mole. That is easy enough to check using the usual tools.[32] Arbitrators and other checkusers have long been aware of that. The negative nature of the edits of this banned user is not open for debate. On the other hand, in what now appear to be a series of calculated bad faith edits, The Devil's Advocate has taken the opposite point of view.[33] The Devil's Advocate appears to be spending his time justifying or enabling the edits of a community banned sock troll. Mathsci (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • TrevelyanL85A2 has requested that The Devil's Advocate lobby arbitrators because he is still unsatisfied.[34] After a two week wikibreak, Trevlyanl85A2 has stated, "I think maybe if you go to one of the arbitrators about this, it should be someone other than Roger Davies. I don't trust Roger Davies to know how to resolve the current situation, because I think he has some responsibility for why it exists. He was the one who proposed that SightWatcher and I be given interaction bans with everyone who's edited R&I articles, at a time when I hadn't edited them in four months and SightWatcher hadn't edited them in a year." Mathsci (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jclemens recused from this request.[35] It's not quite clear why he is commenting now. Mathsci (talk) 04:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jclemens has unrecused himself. Could he please now comment on the issues concerning Echigo mole socks that other arbitrators have raised? No other arbitrators have made any suggestion that I have been "gaming the system", so Jclemens seems to be alone on that. Mathsci (talk) 05:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Three users have initiated requests of this kind all related to the trolling of a banned user: Keystone Crow, TrevelyanL85A2 and The Devil's Advocate. All three of these editors are subject to restrictions of some type on their editing (e.g. the first is blocked as a sock of the banned user). If anybody has any bright ideas about how to stop Echigo mole and his socks creating disruption on wikipedia that would be welcome. Nobody has been able to so far. I don't edit in R&I nor did I start this request. My editing history is clear enough: mostly content edits in geometric function theory at the moment requiring a lot of effort. Vecrumba seems to have mistaken me for another user, I'm not quite sure who.Mathsci (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newyorkbrad has suggested adding a second motion to AGK's motion. Since SightWatcher has now commented here in a highly problematic way, perhaps more is required. Previously SightWatcher was given this warning by an arbitrator [36] which at that stage apparently he took to heart.[37] Prior to that MBisanz and Ed Johnston gave SightWatcher unequivocal warnings that he would be given a lengthy block if his editing patterns did not change.[38] After a 6 week wikibreak he has ignored the warnings and made militating edits above that are indistingusihable from the project space edits of Captain Occam and Ferahgo-the-Assassin. With only 4 very minor content edits in the last 12 months, and now more evidence of proxy-editing and violations of his topic ban, even after mutiple warnings from administrators, what exactly is SightWatcher doing on this project apart from acting as a harassment-only account on behalf of site-banned users? Mathsci (talk) 05:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

Amendment 2 would provide R&I editors (and the banned user) with a tool to provoke Mathsci. Consideration of this amendment is not required now as there is no evidence of a problem (apart from the dilemma over whether WP:DENY should be applied to a banned user posting on the talk page of an R&I editor). If required, this matter can be addressed at some future time, if Mathsci becomes engaged in R&I topics with conduct that is believed to be unhelpful. Johnuniq (talk) 01:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@TrevelyanL85A2: How does it help the encyclopedia to keep a message from a banned user? TrevelyanL85A2's comment at "01:40, 5 August 2012" was made just before removing the Sinebot signature of the banned user's name (diff)—why not remove the message? Hipocrite removed the message (rv banned user) and that edit summary explains the situation. Yet, without seeking clarification, TrevelyanL85A2 restored the message (Please do not remove edits others have made to my talk page without my consent. I keep an open door policy on my page, please respect my wishes). Editors are supposed to use Wikipedia to help the encyclopedia, and encouraging a banned user due to an "open door policy" is not a good use of a talk page. The question posed by Roger Davies at "11:08, 27 July 2012" remains unanswered. Johnuniq (talk) 02:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "gaming" has been used a number of times, but I am perplexed by the recent mention of gaming at 03:13, 16 August 2012 by Jclemens. It is very understandable that Mathsci would want DENY applied to a long term abuser who has been harassing Mathsci—indeed, that's something we all should want, and there would be no issue if TrevelyanL85A2 did not insist on a right to keep comments from the banned user. I think Roger Davies (at 16:51, 3 August 2012) summed up the situation well with "to characterise Mathsci's reversion of harassment by a banned editor as gaming is really appalling".

    Is it this comment by Mathsci (see thread here) that is regarded as "gaming"? That is just a plain description of what had occurred—TrevelyanL85A2 can easily avoid issues like that by not commenting on R&I: just stick to the question of whether there is a right to retain harassing comments. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Silver seren

I'm not sure about whether the Amendments should or should not be enacted, though bullet 2 of Amendment 2 makes logical sense to me, because it's quite clear that there is evidence of a problem. Mathsci has been clearly gaming the system in order to remove perceived opponents from the topic area, taking actions that are sure to provoke a desired response so an Enforcement request can then be filed against the person. Seriously, at this point, I think everyone needs to truly consider blocking Mathsci for some period of time for his rampant and obvious gaming and, to be honest, harassment of other users. SilverserenC 10:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Johnuniq: Whether the user is a sock or not, it was indeed appropriate for me to be notified, considering my involvement in the prior discussion, and the notification itself was neutral. SilverserenC 11:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Mathsci: I also restored the comment on my talk page, as did Penwhale on theirs. Any user is allowed to restore the edits of a banned user so long as they aren't a copyvio or attacking another user, per WP:BAN. SilverserenC 22:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Extra comment: It appears that Mathsci is enacting the "attack and discredit all of your opponents to win" tactic. SilverserenC 01:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Professor marginalia: You should take care not to only quote the parts of the policy you like and ignore the rest, as BAN clearly states that any user is allowed to reintroduce the edits of a banned user so long as the edits do not violate our policies, are copyvios, or are attacking another person. And the attacking part is only for direct attacks. There's no Wikilawyering of "any edit by this person is an attack on this person" either, that would just be ridiculous. SilverserenC 06:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Professor marginalia: No, they shouldn't because that's not the point of that section of BAN. The point is that any editor is free to reinstate an edit by a banned user so long as the edit doesn't violate other policies. Therefore, anyone is allowed to reinstate comments on their talk page by a banned user if they want to, as I have done multiple times before, as have others. SilverserenC 01:23, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad: In short: No. SilverserenC 01:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, please don't use bold print like that; it's unspeakably rude. Second, please explain why you object to Newyorkbrad's comment(s). Thanks, AGK [•] 13:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because what he is suggesting is directly in conflict with the community written policy of WP:BAN and Arbcom has absolutely no jurisdiction over such. Any user is allowed to reinstate the edits of a banned user so long as the edit itself isn't violating other policies (copyvio, attacks, NPOV to some extent). In this case, Trev, myself, and others were reinstating a neutral message informing us of a discussion, which is something we are completely allowed to do within policy. SilverserenC 03:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Penwhale

Like I said above, MathSci probably needs to stay away from Trev's talk page. Beyound that, I am not sure what to do here.

And @Johnuniq: It was appropriate for me to be notified, considering my involvement in previous AE. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 11:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Roger: Trev has not posted on this thread because he was apparently requested to refrain from commenting. I trust that someone else should notify Trev in this case. (Also, he hasn't done much within the last week according to his contributions, so I am not sure what to take from it.) - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 13:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note @Roger: Ever since MBisanz posted this warning at WT:AC to SightWatcher, he's had no contributions, period. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 10:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

There is no conceivable way in which repeatedly restoring the user-talkpage edits of a banned harrassment sockpuppet helps the encyclopedia. Restoring such edits - or litigating their restoration - appears to be TrevelyanL85A2's sole focus on Wikipedia over the past 6 months.

Presumably, the previous ArbCom restriction was crafted in the hope that TrevelyanL85A2 would find something, anything to do on Wikipedia besides continue these old disputes. It's obvious that's not going to happen. Every further second spent on this is a second wasted, and frankly the sheer volume of vexatious litigation associated with this editor-or-group-of-affiliated-editors rivals anything I've seen in the post-Abd era. MastCell Talk 20:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A short statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

I concur with Penwhale that MathSci should stay away from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page. However, I also concur with MastCell's observation that TrevelyanL85A2 has not contributed to Wikipedia in any meaningful way for the last six months. Indeed, TrevelyanL85A2 has not edited a single article since January 13, 2012.[39] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathsci: As an editor completely uninvolved in R&I, I correctly pointed out that you participated in an edit-war. Your claim that I come to this page "in response to the trolling edits of Echigo mole as Rue Cardinale" is flatly wrong. This page is on my watchlist and has been for quite some time. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathsci: I find it ironic that you would accuse me of continuing "to make exaggerated claims" when you were the one to bring up the edit-warring, not me. Anyway, back to what I was saying, I think you should stay away from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page. There's no need for you personally to remove these posts. Let someone else do it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@MathSci: I've made two points: 1) I agreed with Penwhale that MathSci should stay away from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page. 2) I agreed with MastCell's observation that TrevelyanL85A2 has not contributed to Wikipedia for the last six months. It was a very short statement. You're the one who keeps harping about edit-warring, not me. The battleground mentality that you're displaying for all the Arbs to see is highly disappointing, especially when you've already been admonished for this very same behavior. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@MathSci: Editors may participate within reason in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned. By my own admittedly crude count, TrevelyanL85A2 has been mentioned by name over 30 times in this discussion, and I think that it's pretty clear that that the discussion on his talk page is a good faith attempt at dispute resolution. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:11, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@AGK (as first proposer) and PhilKnight and Newyorkbrad (who voted in favor of this resolution), can you please explain why involved editors such as MathSci should be the only ones to enforce removal from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page? This seems to be the provervial 'elephant in the room.' Maybe this isn't your intent, but it is the result of the motion. Can you please explain further? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Professor marginalia

Games. Games. Games.

What's needed here is some serious introspection how the gaming (which is transparent, as I see it, and is frittering away frillions of hours of volunteer time here) can be curtailed. I don't have so much free time to give back to wikipedia lately but I'm here virtually every other day looking up something I want to know about. How does it seriously help this project to squander this much volunteer time in mindless, pointless bureaucratize over how and who to handle a site banned troll obviously stirring up crazy on another topic banned user's userpage? What difference does it make which editor removes those edits that which obviously don't belong here?

The last thing we need here is to give sanctioned troublemakers new avenues to disrupt. This has been a 2 years long clown circus already. Will restricting Mathsci from Trevelyan's talk page end this? How? Trevelyan's not the first - he's deliberately pressed those buttons to exploit the precedent when Ferahgo objected to Mathsci editing her talk page. And I'm half convinced she tacked that direction because she'd seen him chase editors off his own talk page. When others besides Mathsci removed the same comments, Trevelyan's objection persisted. Why except to escalate? Obviously Trevelyan'd read these comments already, and could return to them through edit history as we all appreciate as one of the strengths of this platform. So would it really result in less disruption to demand Mathsci appeal to a proxy to remove a banned troll's comments? How so? Off-site appeals, they won't like one bit and will decry as off-site collusion. On-site appeals they'll decry as "Mathsci who is restricted from such-and-such proxied the action be done by someone else".

To diagnose the games going on in R/I is difficult; blenderize reality TV, Tartuffe, Braveheart, Paddy Chayefsky, The Secret Agent, Scott Pilgrim and you'd get some sense of the aroma of the wikinutty that wafts in to wreak havoc with legit sourced content decision making. Mice at play. Then comes arbcom, and Bleak House gets tossed in the blender.

I think to curtail the gaming we need to stop rewarding it. Professor marginalia (talk) 08:58, 27 July 2012‎

Relevant policy position:

A ban is not merely a request to avoid editing "unless they behave". The measure of a site ban is that even if the editor were to make good edits, permitting them to re-join the community poses enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good [..] Anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban. By banning an editor, the community has determined that the broader problems, due to their participation, outweigh the benefits of their editing, and their edits may be reverted without any further reason. (WP:BAN) Professor marginalia (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Silverseren: The sections I quote above make no reference to "attacks", expressed or implied. If an editor supports the message or content of an edit made by banned editor on a talk page they should sign their own name to it rather than further enable banned users to continue editing via socks. Professor marginalia (talk) 14:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Newyorkbrad - Please make an motion to that effect. An unofficial statement from an arb won't be enough to deter disruption in these situations because key players are now using the trolling as openings. It's a ploy, much like we've seen over and over for more than 2 years. They aren't seeking constructive advice. It's all been about exploiting every opportunity. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Only in Death

I dont particularly want to be here as I have quite a bit of respect for Mathsci and his work, but his needling of his opponents is going to far. This [40] is particularly troubling for me as its basically taking potshots at TDA over a completely unrelated matter to himself (an issue with a GA review for gods sake) and he is using this request, and NYB's (and TDA's issue with them) comments below to do it. It contributes towards showing his relentless attack-mode mentality when he is pursuing a target and it needs to stop. Its got to the point where his actions are impacting on other editors, ones completely unrelated to his issues with his sockpuppet harrassers. And its totally un-necessary. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone wishes to look further, please check the history of WQA and Mathsci's talkpage. As he has requested I dont post to his talkpage because it 'disturbs his difficult content editing' I will not be taking his inapproprite spreading of his conflict further with him. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Additional - if anyone wishes to take up my actions in removing part of Mathsci's comments at WQA (someone else has reverted his edits here - no idea why), feel free to ask via email or on my talkpage as I do not want to disrupt this further by agitating Mathsci any more. Suffice to say I think the above interactions demonstrate why R&I case needs amending/clarifying as per TDA has outlined. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Roger - Just FYI, I respect Mathsci's wish to not have people post on his talkpage if he so chooses. Unfortunately I didnt see the request until after my second post at which point I promptly self-reverted it, although I suspect the damage was done and his concentration already broken for a second time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CIreland

Echigo mole is an extremely pernicious banned sockpuppeteer who has long pursued a vendetta against Mathsci; the very length of this behaviour must itself be disturbing for Mathsci. Additionally, Echigo mole has repeatedly attempted to intimidate Mathsci with "We know where you live" style edits, referencing Mathsci's place of residence.

One of the favorite tactics of Echigo mole is to seek out editors with whom MathSci is in dispute precisely to make it difficult for Mathsci to remove edits to their User talk pages without creating tension. This very amendment request, so far as it concerns Mathsci, enables and extends this abuse even if such was not the intent of the filer.

What is needed in order to address this long-standing problem is not any form of restriction or sanction for Mathsci but rather a remedy that prohibits the restoration of edits by Echigo mole's sockpuppets. Although such is not permitted by the current policy, I would personally like to see Revision Deletion of such edits allowed in order to mitigate against the possibility of editors not wholly aware of the background restoring problematic edits in good faith. Such good faith restorations have occurred in the past and have only served to further Echigo mole's agenda by drawing Mathsci into conflict. CIreland (talk) 23:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by TrevelyanL85A2

I was not planning to comment here, but Roger Davies is asking me a question so I'll answer it.

There are two reasons I don't want Echigo Mole's posts in my user talk to be removed. First, I care about having the the right to decide what I do and don't want in my user talk, even if it's from a sock, as long as it doesn't violate policies. Echigo Mole's conduct elsewhere might be objectionable, but his posts in my user talk were just notifications or civilly-worded advice. Keeping it there doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC or anything else.

Second, I object to which editors are removing it and what I think their reason is. I would object much less if it were done by an uninvolved admin. Mathsci has said a few times he regards his dispute with me as an extension of his dispute with Ferahgo, and refers to me as "unfinished business". [41] The other editors removing the posts, Johnuniq and Hipocrite, also are Ferahgo's and Captain Occam's old opponents. It feels like this group is trying to perpetuate their old dispute in my user talk, and I don't want that.

This began when I had been trying to avoid this group of editors since January. After avoiding them and the R&I topic for a few months, I realized I could not do anything to make them leave me alone. Part of how I realized this was that I saw at the same time Mathsci also was removing posts from SightWatcher's user talk, and making new accusations about him in arbitration discussions, at a time when SightWatcher had avoided this group and the R&I topic for the past year. How can I ever escape this conflict if Mathsci even pursues people who had nothing to do with him and his articles for the past year? There is nothing I can do.

If you count the arbitration request the sockpuppet made in June, this is the third time this issue has been brought before ArbCom in two months. And each time, the group of editors objecting to Mathsci's conduct is a little larger than it was before. If the arbitrators decline to act on this request, what do they hope will happen? The community clearly is not able to resolve it. If ArbCom rejects this request now, it probably will just continue to grow and end up on their plate again in another month.--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 00:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Roger Davies: I didn't realize when "Rue Cardinale" commented in my user talk that this name meant something.  However please note this was not one of the socks that Mathsci reverted.  All of Mathsci's reverts in my user talk were of comments from socks that had inoffensive names, or were posting from IPs.  As Mathsci never reverted this sock, it's inaccurate to say his reverts were justified because of its username.--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by aprock

Short and sweet: Echingo Mole wins. A motion which clarifies his role in this soup stirring is about the only good that can come out of this mess. aprock (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Enric Naval

Trev's excuses are noww bordering in ridiculous. He removes only the offending username[42] saying that the comment itself wasn't removed specifically by Mathsci [43]. But this was twice removed by mathsci, and reverted by Trev while asking Mathsci not to edit his talk page again[44][45], a petition that he repeated later.[46] That's why someone else removed it, because Trev didn't accept Mathsci's removals. Oh, wait, it's even more ridiculous that I thought. Trev is saying that community-banned harassing socks can post anything they like as long that specific edit doesn't make a harassment[47]. Please end this circus of excuses.

There are some obvious things that need to be made more obvious. Please make a motion saying explicitly and clearly that nobody should restore the edits of harassing socks, independently of who removes them. If Trev or anyone else restores any of those comments again, block them immediately and remove the comment. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:09, 5 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

The only question worth answering here is if Mathsci (or anyone else) has the right to remove the comments of an abusive sockpuppeter per WP:DENY after having been restored and responcibility for them taken on by Trev.

if yes, Trev is to cease restoring the text when removed by someone (including Mathsci) citing WP:DENY.
if no, Mathsci (and others) are to cease removing restored edits and any harassment or incivility contained in the restored edits are Trevs to answer for as if he personally wrote them. If the restored edits breach Trev's topic ban, he is responcible for that too.

Everyone is just rehashing that question from different angles. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cla68

"TDA's stage management activities even more inappropriate"? Are you all focusing on the big picture here? Please don't shoot the messenger. Address the concern. Are your rulings being played? If so, fix it and ban the editor who is doing so. If not, say so and explain why. Use some critical thinking, avoid myopia, and interpret this situation to the vision you had when you first ran for Arbcom. Stay focused. Cla68 (talk) 16:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do a banned editor's comments on some random usertalkpage necessarily constitute harassment? Cla68 (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Where in this diff is Mathsci's home address? How many of the offending diffs contain Mathsci's home address, and were they in response to Mathsci's actions? Look at both sides, please. Cla68 (talk) 17:01, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it helps, here in Japan in an automobile accident the authorities try to lay blame to both sides, because both sides usually deserve some blame. From reading the comments above, that is the situation here. I suggest using a sliding scale, what percentage to blame is the banned editor, and what percentage to blame is Mathsci and others? Assign a percentage, then give them an equivalent number of days vacation from Wikipedia. I guarantee you will see a change in their editing behavior. Cla68 (talk) 17:05, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by SightWatcher

I just noticed what Arbcom is suggesting here. I know The Devil's Advocate asked me to not comment but I have something to say about AGK's proposed amendment.

TDA made this request to address the problem of how Mathsci can deliberately provoke me and Trevelyan, and we can't do anything about it because we aren't allowed to comment on his behavior. I don't see how the proposed amendment will address that problem. I assume Mathsci would be considered an editor who has "made significant contributions" to the R&I topic, so the amendment won't change anything meaningful about the situation that led to this request, and the situation will just continue until Arbcom has to deal with it again.

I'm very confused by Arbcom's reluctance to address what I see as the central issue, which is Mathsci's battleground behavior. In the recent request about Youreallycan, a few arbitrators said something that needs addressing about YRC's behavior is how he's trying to mount an offense against the editors criticizing him instead of addressing others' concerns about his behavior (see for example SirFozzie's comment here). AFAICT, the request was declined only because the RFC needs to finish first. How is Mathsci's recent behavior different from YRC's? In this thread seven other editors in addition to me and Trevelyan have taken issue with Mathsci's behavior: The Devil's Advocate, Penwhale, Silver Seren, A Quest for Knowledge, Only in Death, Vecrumba, and Cla68. Mathsci's response is several screens of text attacking these editors, including about things that have nothing to do with the requested amendment (such as The Devil's Advocate's topic ban from 9/11 articles). A few months ago Mathsci did the same thing in this thread and SilkTork warned him [48] that he was showing the same battleground attitude he'd just been admonished for. Mathsci dismissed SilkTork's warning as "trolling". [49] I expressed concern here that this meant Mathsci's behavior that SilkTork warned him about was going to continue, and I was right.

Arbcom knows that an admonishment and then an additional warning from an arbitrator wasn't enough to change Mathsci's battleground behavior, and they think this behavior needs addressing when someone else does it. The community also seems to be being very clear that they think Mathsci's behavior is a large part of the problem. Arbcom has a responsibility to serve the community, and they have a responsibility to be consistent about what type of behavior is allowed. It seems like they also should care about finding a solution that won't make them have to keep dealing with the same situation again and again. -SightWatcher (talk) 03:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Awaiting statements. However, I would clarify that while Mathsci has e-mailed the committee regarding this matter, no private statement or evidence has been taken into consideration. Only under certain circumstances do we receive private evidence or hold proceedings in camera. AGK [•] 01:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In relation to Amendment 1, I have proposed a motion below. AGK [•] 23:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In relation to Amendment 2, I will say only that I do not think this issue needs to be re-examined, and at this time I will not be proposing (nor supporting) a motion that grants the request in Amendment 2. AGK [•] 23:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll recuse, even though I've only ever interacted with these editors and this topic as an uninvolved administrator, my efforts to keep all parties working constructively have been dismal failures of the bitten-hand variety, resulting in the recent attempt to name me as a party the last time this matter showed up here. Jclemens (talk) 06:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mathsci pointed out that I'd recused, which I'd forgotten. Since my recusal was elective in the first place, I appear to have de facto rescinded it by voting on the motion. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The editors who are already banned and topic-banned need to abide by the prior rulings, and editors who are proxying for them or carrying on on their behalf need to stop. While the banning policy contemplates that editors in good standing may, in effect, sponsor and adopt edits made by banned users, I strongly recommend (and we may want to adopt this in a decision) that people not do so with respect to this particular topic, because the behavior that led to some of these bans was egregious and the edits are generally not helpful. Mathsci should stay away from the talkpages of his adversaries (reverting edits from banned users on those pages can safely be left to others), but other than that, I don't see the need for any remedy against him at this time. Finally, the involvement of at least one of the passersby in this dispute has been unhelpful, and I hope those who have acted inconsistently with the preceding suggestions will stop doing so before we have to start calling out names. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • People continue to defend the practice of accepting and responding to posts from obvious sockpuppets of the banned users in this area, and reverting them back onto their userpages when they are deleted. Whether or not this practice might be acceptable under the banning policy in other contexts, given all the background here it is encouraging the banned users to continue their disruptive and harassing behavior, and therefore is not permissible. The editors who have commented in this discussion are therefore directed to refrain from any further on-wiki communication with the banned users on any page on Wikipedia (including their talkpages), and not to reinstate any comments by the banned users that may be removed by others, regardless of any claimed justification for doing so under any policy or guideline that, in less toxic contexts, might otherwise apply. At the moment, this is simply a friendly but firm suggestion from an individual arbitrator, but I'll be glad to offer a formal motion to this effect, enforceable by significant and increasing blocks, if that is what becomes necessary to put an end to this disruption. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Various questions:
    • @ Mathsci: I'm not seeing "banning" people from your talk page as being helpful. Why not simply remove the messages after you've read them?
    • @ The Devil's Advocate: Are you seriously suggesting Mathsci is gaming the system when he reverts the posts of a banned user who has long been harassing him and posting non-public information about him?
    • @ Trevelyan In the light of WP:UP#POLEMIC and WP:USERBIO, why do the named topic-banned editors believe such messages should be retained on their talk pages? (Could a clerk mention to them that I've asked this please and ask for their responses?)
    Otherwise, I reiterate what Brad has said.  Roger Davies talk 11:08, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • To clarify the core issues, the various guidelines (WP:UP#POLEMIC and WP:USERBIO) and essay (WP:DENY) discussed here simply reinforce the relevant policy:
      1. bans apply to all edits made by a banned editor;
      2. anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban;
      3. Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned editor take complete responsibility for the content.

      Given the clear policy position, it is a mystery to me why any of the editors who restored the posts could possibly think they were doing the right thing, especially when by restoring they were validating and endorsing the banned editor's posts. As this is about the thirtieth process involving the original topic-banned editors, and their successors, I agree entirely with Brad that robust measures are becoming increasingly appropriate.  Roger Davies talk 16:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    • @Penwhale: I know that SW's last edit was a month ago. It makes TDA's stage management activities even more inappropriate.  Roger Davies talk 16:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Silver Seren. You are misinformed:
      • ArbCom is explicitly authorised by policy to: "interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct, or create procedures through which policy and guidelines may be enforced". Obviously, that applies to your interpretation of banning policy.
      • The Banning policy does indeed provide an element of discretion over reversion when it says: "this does not mean that obviously helpful edits (such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism) must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor, but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert". However, it seems to me that the policy's context is "obviously helpful" article edits rather than clerking of ArbCom matters by a banned user. Furthermore, in this particular instance, it seems to me probable the "helpful messages" were simply a ruse to deliver a covert toxic payload at Mathsci's expense in a seemingly innocuous parcel.
      There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume good faith for anything this particular serial harasser/sockmaster posts.  Roger Davies talk 16:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re: The Suspected Socks sideshow I know that Mathsci has been sorely harassed, and for a protracted period, and that the tags say "suspected sockpuppet" but I would have thought a SPI report/CU check were probably the minima here. Can we completely drop this now?  Roger Davies talk 16:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re: TrevelyanL85A2 He's mentioned here and elsewhere. How, as part of the broader discussion, is he breaching a topic ban? That said, to characterise Mathsci's reversion of harassment by a banned editor as gaming is really appalling.  Roger Davies talk 16:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • @CLA68. Yes, beyond doubt, when the username posting them is the street where their longterm victim lives.  Roger Davies talk 16:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: Wording of Race & Intelligence Review topic-ban remedies

For this motion there are 13 active arbitrators. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

For reference, the two topic-ban remedies in question are worded as follows:

6.1) SightWatcher (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Wikipedia, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic. This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned.

7.1) TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Wikipedia, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic. This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned.

Proposed:

In remedies 6.1 and 7.1 of the Race and intelligence Review, SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2 were banned from:
"participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic"
That sentence is replaced by:
"participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have made significant contributions to the topic".
Support
  1. Proposed. As usual, whether a specific user who falls within the grey area between minor editing and long-term editing is a "significant contributor" will be a decision for the community's administrators (at WP:AE). With context and common sense, those administrators are able to make a sensible decision, and so reduce the gaming of the catch-all wording of these remedies. AGK [•] 23:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per AGK. PhilKnight (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I think this will be helpful, although I don't think it is sufficient to resolve the issue, and anticipate that another motion will also be made. I am not convinced by Jclemens' comment regarding Mathsci. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Not convinced that this is the right direction to go, given Mathsci's gaming of the one-way interaction ban. If we upgraded the existing interaction bans to two-way, I would probably support. Jclemens (talk) 03:13, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. As far as I can tell, this will have no effect on the application of sanctions in this area. Risker (talk) 18:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
  1. SilkTork ✔Tea time 23:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by arbitrators

Amendment request: Eastern European mailing list

Initiated by Nug (talk) at 21:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Eastern European mailing list Remedy 4.3.11A: Editors restricted (as modified by motion)
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Notified[50]

Information about amendment request

The remedy of the Eastern European mailing list case is amended to lift the interaction ban between User:Russavia and User:Nug.

Statement by Nug

EdJohnston had previously requested that the mutual topic bans between Russavia and I be lifted[51] Unfortunately after some editors objected due to their apocalyptic fear of our possible collaboration might turn the world up side down, it was declined. Given that Russavia has since been site banned for a year and indef topic banned and the chance of now interacting reduced to zero, can this restriction be now lifted? I'd like to edit articles like 90th anniversary of the Latvian Republic, but I cannot remove those tags placed by Russavia almost a year ago without breaching my interaction ban. --Nug (talk) 21:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Clerks, I fail to see how Paul Seibert's comments have any relevance what so ever to a request to amend a redundant interaction ban, and I ask that they be removed. If Paul has issues he can air them in a more appropriate forum (along with linked evidence) where they can be discussed in full without derailing this specific amendment request. Thanks. --Nug (talk) 05:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Courcelles, Russavia is indefinitely topic banned from EE, see this, in addition to the one year site ban[52]. --Nug (talk) 02:13, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the problematic behaviour occured solely in the EE topic area, an indefinite topic ban in EE is virtually an indefinite site ban in any case. --Nug (talk) 02:33, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Link to discussion on Courcelles' talk page[53]. --Nug (talk) 02:45, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't quite understand the point of Courcelles' concern, which apparently is related to Russavia's behaviour when he returns from his site ban. Courcelles claims that Russavia's disruptive behaviour extended outside of the EE topic area, but I cannot find any evidence of this. As EdJohnston states, discretionary sanctions remains available under the existing authority of WP:ARBEE, this request is merely to enable editing of articles that Russavia is indefinitely banned from editing without breaching my Iban. --Nug (talk) 20:23, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the update Brad, this is an intriguing and dramatic development. As I recall Russavia had previously supported the lifting of our mutual iBans, so I hope this evidence is germane to the issue of the iBans, rather some unrelated and unsubstantiated allegations which would more likely be evidence of where his own head is at, more than anything else. Anyway, I await with interest. --Nug (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SilkTork, Roger Davies, The point of an interaction ban is to stop interaction between two parties, if one is indefinitely topic banned from the area of conflict there can no longer can be any interaction, and thus it is redundant. What you appear to be suggesting is that you believe the edits of a banned editor should be preserved by keeping an interaction ban in place. The reason no editor has been "moved to remove" these tags is simply because there isn't anyone who cares a cat's fart about certain obscure topics. Tags are not meant to be used as tools to further battles but to alert editors to real potential issues, but no one has responded in almost twelve months. The reason why they were placed in the first place along other tags[54] and immediately nominated for deletion[55] was more to do with the same battleground attitude that eventually got Russavia site banned for one year and topic banned indefinitely.
It is just absolutely astounding that you, both Arbitrators, would contend that there should be mutual agreement from an indefinitely topic banned editor prior lifting an interaction ban. In any case I provided evidence of such prior mutual agreement in an earlier request[56]. If Russavia has since withdrawn that agreement in some email to the Committee, then that is further evidence of his battleground mentality as there is no cause for him to withdraw such agreement. I just don't see what these implications that SilkTork alludes to other than to perpetuate conflict that Russavia and I agreed to leave behind[57] and to hold hostage some topics to the whim of someone who forfeited their right to edit that area for an indeterminate period. --Nug (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Yeah, me too. It's sort of pointless now. VolunteerMarek 23:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Ed Johnson - I'm pretty sure that there are no remaining sanctions from the EEML case and there haven't been for awhile (btw, as an update, EE topic area is actually doing pretty well). And even the sanctions themselves were pretty mild to begin with. Some people keep dredging the case up in the standard battleground tactic of poisoning the well but honestly, that stuff's old news, there's nothing left, nobody, including AE admins, is paying much attention. The interaction bans are the last remnants of the case (well, actually, more from the R-B case) and even those, obviously, are no longer much relevant.VolunteerMarek 01:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Paul - Paul, when I wrote ""keep dredging the case up in the standard battleground tactic"" I actually did NOT have you in mind. Rather just some more peripheral users. Keep in mind that lots of folks from what can be described as the "anti-EEML" side managed to get themselves banned/blocked/topic banned just fine without any help from anyone on the list in the months following the case, thank you very much. I was thinking more of these guys who sometimes keep coming back as IP addresses or fresh starts or sock puppets, who pretend to be new to Wikipedia but somehow have this magical knowledge of the EEML case which they try to use win arguments and battles in which they got blocked for in the first place.

Anyway, more general point is that aside from this interaction ban there are no outstanding sanctions from the EEML case. This is a good opportunity to put it all to rest.VolunteerMarek 04:26, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Paul Siebert

@Ed Johnson & Volunteer Marek. First of all, I always supported the idea to lift all remaining individual sanctions against ex-EEML members. However, this my post is mainly a responce to the Volunteer Marek's post where he mentioned some people who "keep dredging the case up in the standard battleground tactic". In connection to that, I would like to remind VM that I was among the users who had conflicts with the EEML cabal, and, I recall, someone (probably user:Viriditas) strongly advised me to read the EEML archive and present the evidences against them when the case was open, because the cabal had been contemplating some actions against me. I refused to do that, however.
I believe, the fact that I had been silent when the EEML case was open, and that I decided to return to this issue now is per se an indication that something happened during last year that forced me to express my concern now. The major EEML violation, their coordinated edits is the fact that is extremely hard to establish. As far as I understand, the community became aware of the existence of the EEML cabal purely by accident, and there is absolutely no guaranty that no similar cabals currently exist. By writing that, I do not imply that the EEML member continue to coordinate, however, it would be equally incorrect to claim that their one year long topic bans may guarantee that no coordination can exist between them. In connection to that, I believe the behaviour of EEML members must be absolutely transparent to dispel any suspicions. Concretely, I am not sure ex-EEML members have a moral right to simultaleously participate in votes or RfCs when no fresh arguments are brought by each of them (i.e., the posts such as "Support a user X", without detailed explanation of one's own position should not be allowed for them). Similarly, joining the chain of reverts where other EEML members already participate should not be allowed also. We all remember that these users massively coordinate their edits in past, we all (including the admins) have absolutely no tools to make sure such coordination does not occur currently, so we have a right at least to express our concern in a situation when such coordination cannot be ruled out. The fact that they cannot be considered as uninvolved parties when they join the action of their peers should also be clear for everyone.
In contrast, we currently have a directly opposite tendency: any mention of the EEML is treated as a "battleground tactics", many EEML members changed their usernames to protect their privacy and, simultaneously, to disassociate themselves from their past violations, and many of them continue to concurrently edit the same articles. In my opinion, the EEML pendulum is moving in the opposite direction, and now it has already passed its lowest point...--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Paul, with much respect, the conduct you describe as suspicious due to the potential for off-wiki collaboration, is suspicious without reference to off-wiki collaboration. If discussion closers are poorly closing discussions on the basis of !votes, rather than on the basis of quality and influence of independent arguments, then this is a problem with closers. If a number of editors happen to have the same reversion style, which appears to an editor to be against policy or consensus considerations, then that is already a matter for content dispute resolution. The conduct you're describing is unacceptable regardless of demonstrated past off-wiki collaboration, or the potential for off-wiki collaboration. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:37, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]


@ VolunteerMarek. Thank you, Marek. In actuality, I also didn't mean all EEML members in this my post. Behaviour of majority of them is almost impeccable, and they do their best to dispel any doubts about any possibility of coordinated edits. The problem is, however, that some mechanism is, nevertheless, needed to eliminate any possibility of resurrection of this story (with the same or different participants, no matter). In connection to that, I proposed some modifications to the EW policy. To my great satisfaction, one of the EEML members, whom I sincerely respect, Piotrus, supported this proposal (which, in my opinion, would eliminate any possibility of tag teaming). However, some other EEML members opposed to that, and my proposal went into oblivion. Maybe, it makes sense to return to this issue?--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:09, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@MVBW. In my opinion, the idea of amnesty should come from some third party, not from the EEML members themselves. Frankly speaking, I do not support a blanket amnesty. Whereas some ex-EEML members fully learned due lessons from this story, some other members still demonstrate partisan behaviour.
Moreover, in my opinion, the right of amnesty should be earned. By earned I mean, for example, the following. You guys should come together and propose some changes to policy that would make any tag teaming, as well as other manifestations of edit warring impossible. For example, you may propose a following change to the policy: every user who joins a chain of reverts started by others is responsible for edit warring even if his personal 3RR limit has not been exceeded (a kind of "collective 3RR", we can discuss technical details elsewhere). Two years ago, I proposed this change to the policy, I was supported by one of the EELM member, Piotrus, - but two other EEML members opposed to such a change! What is the most logical explanation for that? The most obvious (although not necessarily the most correct) explanation is that you guys (of course, just some of you) still have not fully abandoned your battleground mentality. Again, if you guys will propose, and persuade, our community to make this, or similar modification of the policy that will help to prevent future edit wars - I will fully support a wholesale amnesty, and, probably, even deletion of the EEML case from the archives. However, for now - no.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]


@Frankly speaking, I agree with this Vecrumba's argument. It would be more reasonable not to focus on the interaction ban between Nug and Russavia, but to fix a ridiculous situation when the interaction ban between the user A and B becomes a tool that allows one of them to seize a control over some article by making edits scattered through the whole article. Fixing of this issue will be tantamount to lifting of the Nug/Russavia interaction ban. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:47, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by John Carter

I have to say that this proposal makes sense to me. Russavia probably can't remove any tags himself under his own restrictions, and it makes no sense to have possibly now irrelevant tags remain in place because the person who placed them can't do so himself. I might request Nug start a discussion on the talk page before removing tags or maybe making substantial changes to an article not necessarily directly related to recent developments, under the circumstances, but I can't see how it makes any sense to allow people who have been banned from the site and a given topic to in effect continue to have a degree of control over them, through such things as dubiously placed or now irrelevant tags. John Carter (talk) 22:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by EdJohnston

There would be a benefit to making EEML obsolete, and the Committee could pass a motion to lift all remaining bans and restrictions from the original WP:EEML case. The understanding would be that any bans that turn out still to be necessary can be reimposed via discretionary sanctions under the existing authority of WP:ARBEE. The only nuance might be that some of Russavia's restrictions come from WP:ARBRB which is thought of as including all of the former Soviet Union. So the Committee might clarify that WP:ARBEE will allow discretionary sanctions relating to any countries of the former Soviet Union. In actuality, the only provision of EEML that hasn't expired is Remedy 11A, the one that prevents the EEML editors sanctioned by name from interacting with Russavia.

Statement by Vecrumba

To the point at hand, I support lifting of the ban. In particular, any evaluation of editor behavior needs to be from here forward, not, as as has been implied, saddle particular editors with a permanent stench. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 19:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the IBAN mechanism, I have commented elsewhere on its completely inappropriate enforcement which invites conflict. I thank Paul Siebert for his stated agreement with my position. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 19:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I move not only that the ban be lifted but that the IBAN policy be strictly interpreted. If two editors are "banned" from interacting with each other, that should not be construed as a ban on their constructively interacting on content, addressing content and not each other. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 19:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

It should be noted that the ban/block on Russavia was a strange reaction to a harmless cartoon, and therefore could be overturned at any time. Rich Farmbrough, 01:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Awaiting statements, but I'm inclined to seriously consider this request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unless anything new and concerning is raised in the comments, I'll propose a motion on this in a couple of days. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The delay is because the Committee received an e-mail from Russavia indicating he has some evidence we should consider. I'm allowing a little more time for him to send it to us. Note that I wouldn't take any action (or refrain from taking any action) based on such evidence without giving anyone else mentioned in it an opportunity to comment on it. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:41, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that there is little value in maintaining interaction bans that have been mooted by one of the parties being banned. Jclemens (talk) 03:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, the banned party is not banned indefinitely, so that is a mitigating concern... when that party returns to Wikipedia, will the interaction ban save strife? Courcelles 20:54, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Nug, topic bans don't really change the usefulness of interaction bans to my mind, I'm only concerned about Russavia's site ban here. Courcelles 02:20, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am also concerned about the implications of lifting an interaction ban because one party is currently blocked - that appears one-sided and simply delaying potential conflict. I would rather lift an interaction ban because BOTH parties are in a position of agreement. If the tags that Russavia placed are significantly inappropriate, then another editor would be moved to remove them. It doesn't need to be Nug. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:31, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty much per SilkTork.  Roger Davies talk 09:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Nug. A topic ban and an interaction ban are two very different things. I'd be prepared to lift the interaction ban for both parties, but would like to hear from Russavia first.  Roger Davies talk 12:17, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering that we've lifted other individual sanctions in this area on the basis that the discretionary sanctions are sufficient to maintain order in the future, I don't see a particular need to retain this one, especially on the off chance that the conflict might resume once Russavia's current ban ends. I'll propose a motion to that effect below. Kirill [talk] 01:15, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Motion (Eastern European mailing list)

1) The interaction ban placed upon Nug (talk · contribs) and Russavia (talk · contribs) in the Eastern European mailing list case is lifted, effective immediately. The users are reminded of the discretionary sanctions authorized for their area of mutual interest.

For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 19:41, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Per the discussion above. Kirill [talk] 01:15, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Jclemens (talk) 06:11, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 12:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  6. [Switched from oppose],  Roger Davies talk 05:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  7. I see no benefit to retaining this sanction. AGK [•] 23:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  8. PhilKnight (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Okay, per Roger Davies. Risker (talk) 15:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. This is a one-sided discussion. Prefer to discuss it if the other party returns. In the meantime, Nug is able to edit Wikipedia without the ban interfering. Having assisted on the main aspect of the ban that Nug had problems with (and willing to help out in any other areas that remain) there is no valid reason for lifting the ban. If the ban on Russavia was permanent, then yes, but he may return on successful appeal. SilkTork ✔Tea time 19:02, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per SilkTork, especially the part about that Russavia's block is time-limited changes the discussion considerably. Courcelles
    It is not an interaction ban in the conventional sense. It restricts a group of editors from commenting on or interacting with Russavia. I would like (1) to hear from Russavia about this before amending and (2) to consider removing the restriction entirely from the group of editors rather than lifting it piecemeal. In the meantime, I am not persuaded that it continuing in force is onerous.  Roger Davies talk 07:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC) Having heard from Russavia, I'm switching to Support in this instance,  Roger Davies talk 05:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
Comments
Holding my vote, for reasons similar to Roger's. AGK [•] 13:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC) Voted. AGK [•] 23:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, Russavia will contact us with his views over the weekend. AGK [•] 15:18, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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