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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by NuclearWarfare (talk | contribs) at 17:42, 20 December 2010 (Undid revision 403379171 by NuclearWarfare (talk)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
Anachronist   16 June 2024 0/5/0
Rio Grande 223   19 June 2024 0/1/0
[edit]
Open cases

Currently, no arbitration cases are open.

[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Venezuelan politics 25 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Article titles and capitalisation none (orig. case) 7 June 2024
Clarification request: mentioning the name of off-wiki threads none none 4 June 2024
Amendment request: India-Pakistan none (orig. case) 7 June 2024
Clarification request: Contentious topics restrictions none none 10 June 2024
Motion name Date posted
Block of Rp2006 18 June 2024

Requests for amendment

Request to amend prior case: West Bank - Judea and Samaria

Initiated by Jayjg (talk) at 02:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
West Bank - Judea and Samaria arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Remedy 11.3.4 Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria#Jayjg restricted
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Amendment 1

Statement by Jayjg

It's been a year and a half since I was topic-banned from the Israel-Palestine area. I'd like to request that the ban be lifted per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria#Lifting of restrictions.

I've reflected a lot on the reasons for the ban, and I can see now that I wasn't collaborative enough in my approach. I was too quick to revert, and too judgmental about edits I disagreed with. I apologize to the Committee and community for the role I played in the events that led to the ban, and I hope I've learned the appropriate lessons from it. I would very much like to contribute in the I/P area again: I have knowledge of the topic that I believe would help to resolve disputes, I'm very familiar with the content policies, and I believe I could make useful contributions that would benefit the encyclopedia.

The "Lifting of restrictions" section of the case mentions looking favorably on participation in the featured-content process. During the last 18 months, I've written and brought a series of articles about synagogues to FA and GA status: First Roumanian-American congregation, Temple Sinai (Oakland, California), Temple Israel (Dayton, Ohio), Congregation Beth Israel (New Orleans, Louisiana), and Congregation Beth Israel-Judea. Another article I wrote, Temple Israel (Memphis, Tennessee), is currently an FA candidate achieved FA status this week.

During the same period, I've participated in dozens of FAC reviews (e.g. [1], [2]), assisted User:Nableezy in improving Al-Azhar Mosque with a view to helping it gain FA status in future, and written over a dozen DYKs. I’ve also helped out at AfD, closing hundreds of AfD discussions, and at RS/N, where I’m the fourth highest contributor.

The topic ban has caused a few problems. For example, I was unable to take part in the FAC of the only other synagogue GA (Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hurva Synagogue/archive1), because the synagogue is in Jerusalem, even though I was solicited to do so by FA Director SandyGeorgia.[3][4] The FA nomination ultimately failed. Similarly, the Israel FA went through a Featured Article Review, and was delisted in June. I was the fourth highest contributor to the article, but was unable to help it retain its FA status. There are other articles I would like to bring to FA status, but certain aspects of them touch broadly on the I/P debate, so I’ve been unable to.

I can assure the Committee that, if the ban is lifted, I will stick very closely to the content and behavioral policies on those articles, as well as the additional ARBPIA restrictions, and will endeavor to ensure that my input there is only constructive. Jayjg (talk) 02:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Carcharoth: Regarding FAC reviews, here are some other examples: [5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]. I think my participation at FAC (and edits to FAC articles) have generally been appreciated; one FA author, for example, posted on my talk page "Thank you very much for your in-depth comments. It's reviews like these that make me want to come back to FAC. :-)" Another posted just 3 days ago "José Paranhos, Viscount of Rio Branco is now a Featured article! Jayjg, thank you very much for taking your time to review the article and for your helpful and constructive participation.". Regarding RS/N, I've made almost 800 edits to the page; here are some examples from this month: [14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22]. Jayjg (talk) 01:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@PhilKnight: I am now, thanks, but I wouldn't have violated this restriction and guideline even if they hadn't been formalized. Jayjg (talk) 20:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.
  • I'll comment here, as I'm not a member of ArbCom until the start of January. Anyway, I guess you're aware of the of the WP:WESTBANK naming convention? Also, you should be aware the entire set of articles are covered by 1RR. PhilKnight (talk) 16:15, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • My first thoughts here is that I would be willing to lift the topic ban (with the appropriate caveat that it will quickly be replaced if there are further issues here.) However, before I would entertain a motion, I would like to see other statements. SirFozzie (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jayjg, could you give a few more examples of FAC reviews you have participated in and also some examples of 'reliable sources noticeboard' discussions where you felt you made particularly helpful contributions? On a pedantic point, it is FA delegate, not director. Carcharoth (talk) 23:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Jayjg, thanks for the extra information I asked for. I will ask the other arbitrators to have a look as this as well. One more thing - given what SirFozzie said above, would you be happy with us asking the clerks to ask others to comment here, including some of those you have mentioned? Carcharoth (talk) 03:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Pseudoscience

Initiated by jps (talk) at 16:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Pseudoscience arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Generally_considered_pseudoscience
  2. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Questionable_science
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1

  • Current wording: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Generally_considered_pseudoscience reads "16) Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience."
  • Suggested rewording: Replace the above principle with: "16) Theories which have a following but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience."
  • Precedent: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Modified_by_motion
  • Rationale: singling out "astrology" is problematic and essentially a content ruling which is beyond arbcom's remit. Problematic aspects of this finding include: 1) indicating that astrology is a "theory" which it certainly isn't in the sense of a scientific theory, 2) insinuating by negative association with a previous principle that astrology is somehow not "obvious pseudoscience" which is a highly questionable proposition. Removing the specific example corrects these problems.

Statement by jps

Rationale for the amendment is made above. jps (talk) 16:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ludwigs2

Alternate wording of this amendment. see my comments under amendment 2 below for explanation and discussion:

Suggested rewording
16) Theories which have a following in the lay public but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. --Ludwigs2 19:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment 2

  • Current wording: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Questionable science reads "17) Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."
  • Suggested rewording: Replace the above principle with: "17) Theories which have a substantial following but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience may contain information to that effect."
  • Precedent: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Modified_by_motion
  • Rationale: singling out "psychoanalysis" as "questionable science" and declaring a class of subjects that "should not be characterized" in defiance of reliable sources which say otherwise are both problematic assertions and essentially content rulings which are beyond arbcom's remit. Problematic aspects of this finding include: 1) indicating that psychoanalysis is a "science" which it is not generally considered to be — not even a "questionable" one. It is, rather, a technique that offers a perspective on human behavior, theory of mind, and modes of dysfunction. 2) insinuating by negative association with a previous principle that psychoanalysis is somehow not "obvious pseudoscience" which is a POV that attacks the perspective of such luminaries as Richard Feynman who outlines his argument in favor of psychoanalysis being a pseudoscience in Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!. Removing the specific example corrects these problems. 3) The final directive, that these kinds of proposals and ideas "generally should not be so characterized" is a vague and unhelpful directive that has caused problems with editors debating whether a topic is truly "pseudoscientific" or merely "questionable science" — a meaningless and terrible game that puts the focus on trying to read the tea leaves of arbcom decisions rather than looking at the most reliable sources and trying to decide from them what the mainstream academic understanding of a subject is. In practice, this ruling is ignored by editors at, for example, list of pseudosciences because it is so contrary to Wikipedia's content policies and guidelines (example discussion). I propose that the easiest way to resolve this apparent contradiction is to amend the ruling so that it no longer makes claims to content adjudication and instead returns editorial control of pseudoscience characterization to what reliable sources say on the subject.

Statement by jps

Rationale for the amendment is made above. jps (talk) 16:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mangoe

I'm not a participant in the original case, but I am a regular at the fringe theory noticeboard. Personally I tend to favor examples, but if we have precedent for omitting them, so be it. I do not think the last clause should be dropped through amendment, however. In the case of psychoanalysis it seems to me that the article needs to reflect the mainstream viewpoint and express Feynman's criticism as that of a dissenter (assuming of course that this situations still obtains-- but if it didn't there wouldn't be any pressure to use this as an example). Mangoe (talk) 17:33, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of reliable sources that show that Feynman's critique is close to the mainstream academic understanding of psychoanalysis. I just used his critique as an example. jps (talk) 20:30, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I prefer Ludwigs2's wording I don't think I would interpret the consequences of following it so stringently as he holds. In general for a subject of some controversy there is reason to mention the controversy in the lead. In the cases in question, there is some difference, however small, between a field which has always had trouble gaining general academic acceptance and another field which once enjoyed some degree of respect but which is now falling out of favor. As it appears at this instant it seems to me that the lead for parapsychology is up front about the controversy, and those testifying against it seem more relevant as authorities. Looking at the material in psychoanalysis is a lot more problematic, not the least of which problem is the considerable space devoted to criticisms from philosophers. If we had some solid sources from psychologists saying "look, we tried this stuff, and we now think it's a bunch of hooey" it would be a lot easier to class it as old, dead pseudoscience.
There's a content issue here of exactly how similar the two cases are. My sense of what's in the articles now is that they support calling the one pseudoscientific better than they do the other, but that there's some possibility of finding better material for the latter. In the case of string theory there is a lot of doubt being expressed but surely not to the same degree; the lead of that article is up front about the dispute but does not go so far as to elevate those doubts to the level of calling the theory discredited. I feel that we have more of an issue which can be dealt with here about specifically the wording of article leads. My interpretation of the various versions is that none of them which has been proposed here would forbid any use of the word "pseudoscience" in a lead; as I see it the issue is in expressing the consensus and how disagreement relates to it. Even if the line between them is not always sharp, I think we need distinct cases where there is general agreement that a matter is pseudoscientific and where there substantial opinion which has not been accepted as consensus. Mangoe (talk) 21:12, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ludwigs2

This is problematic. Why should even a noted scholar like Feynman be used on wikipedia to critique an entire field of scholarship for which he has no special training or expertise? He is a physicist, not a psychologist or a specialist in the philosophy of science, so the most he's qualified to say is that psychoanalysis is not good physics (which I think we all already knew). We're not talking about UFO technology here: psychoanalysis is a valid field of research in its own right, and if it's going to be critiqued it should be done so by professionals in the relevant research area. Feynman is not even close. This is precisely the kind of thinking we do not want to encourage.

The sticking point, I think, is in the ambiguity of the phrase Theories which have a substantial following... which is used in both sections. The 'substantial following' of psychoanalysis is of a different character entirely than the 'substantial following' of astrology. Clarify that, and I think the problem resolves itself more cleanly. so, I'll offer the following as a counter-suggestion:

Suggested rewording
17) Theories which have a substantial presence in academic scholarship should not be characterized as pseudoscience, but may contain scholarly critiques which refer to them as pseudoscience.

I would interpret this to mean that Feynman could be used on the psychoanalysis page, but only in the body (not in the lead), and only properly contextualized as a debate about the rigor of psychoanalysis' methods. I've added a parallel revision to the other amendment request above. --Ludwigs2 19:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a reasonably good formulation providing it says "... in current academic scholarship" as there are cases where pseudoscientific ideas have enjoyed academic favor prior to their rejection. Mangoe (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(please move if this is the wrong place to comment) I understand the concerns about overly weighting minority critiques, but the same rationale Ludwigs2 uses to dismiss Feynman's characterization of psychoanalysis could also be used to argue that famous critiques of parapsychology do not warrant mention in the lead of that particular article. The problem with Ludwigs2's proposed wording is, as I see it, that what constitutes a "substantial presence" in "academic scholarship" is very difficult to gauge. To wit, there are far fewer academic psychologists willing to go to bat for the scientific legitimacy of Freudian or Jungian theories than there were in the past, and the number of true psychoanalysts employed in the academy is most-assuredly steadily dropping (they're a minority in psychology departments these days, which is ruefully acknowledged by the psychoanalysts themselves). At what point do we as editors decide that the pendulum has swung enough to include the characterization of a subject as being pseudoscientific in the lead? This, I think, is NOT something that the arbitration committee should be deciding. It's something that informed editors need to decide after considering the sum total of the reliable sources on the subject. Trying to legislate this treatment from on-high is just inviting an additional conflict over the semiotics of arbcom decisions. If a hypothetical featured-article writer wants to improve our article on psychoanalysis and makes an editorial decision to deal with the academic critiques of the subject in a single sentence in the lead, why should their hands be tied by an arbitrary arbcom content ruling? jps (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I didn't create the content ruling - that was here before I joined the project. I just think that if arbcom is going to indulge in a content ruling regardless, they ought to do it correctly.
As to why your hypothetical editor should have his hands tied... My belief on this matter is that any topic that has active, productive, ongoing work in the scholarly world is precluded from being pseudoscience by definition for the time frame it is active in the scholarly world. Each community of scholars gets to decide for itself what is and what is not 'scientific' for its field - that's the way it works in the academy - and so long as the field itself is accepted by the greater academic community, wikipedia should not be implying that it is somehow less than scientific. That does a disservice to the scientific world as a whole (where does wikipedia get off telling the scientific community that a field they currently accept as valid is actually pseudoscience?) Scientists are allowed to sneer at perceived methodological flaws of other disciplines, obviously, but wikipedia cannot present that as truth without without running afoul of a large number of academic scholars who happen to be in that other discipline. And yes, this is retroactive. Parapsychology can be considered pseudoscience now but for the brief period it was actively investigated by reputable scholars, it was science. Psychoanalysis may (probably will) eventually reach a stage where no scholars take it seriously, and anyone who practices psychoanalysis after that can safely be considered a pseudoscientist, but as of now it's still a valid area of scholarly research and deserves to be considered a science.
As I've said before, the entire range of fringe science conflicts on wikipedia boils down to two species of editors who both drastically misunderstand what science is. On one hand there are editors who are overly-enthused about improbable possibilities and think all such deserve to be called science; on the other, there are editors who seem to believe that 'science' can be defined as an abstract universal against which everything can be measured. Both approaches are wrong-headed. We shouldn't be trying to determine when something starts or stops being a science - if the status of a field is not patently obvious from the way scholars deal with the subject, then we should gracefully maintain the status quo (keeping unaccepted fields as unaccepted and established fields as established until scholarship makes things clearer). --Ludwigs2 21:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor User:Rocksanddirt

This sort of amendment is the sort of legal nitpicking that is not really important to the management of en.wikipedia. While singling out certain types of groups in the final decision is not the best practice, amending the decision two or so years later is also not the best practice. I think those on the committee would be better to spend the precious time they devote to committee activities to work on real disputes and problems within the community. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Please move this comment if it should be placed somewhere else.) There are real disputes regarding these rulings that are ongoing on various pages. For example, Talk:Acupuncture has active editors insisting that these arbcom rulings are relevant to discussions of categorical labeling. In the past, the fact that the committee chose to make a content ruling such as this has emboldened editors to edit war with the claim that they are carrying out arbcom's commands. jps (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Vassyana

I think ArbCom should not revise their findings. Instead, just state that it was an understanding of the policy at the time, not a binding directive independent from established policy; direct editors to WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV rules that are binding now. Wash your hands of the content matter and be done with it. Vassyana (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, I don't think it's possible to wash ones hands of the content matter when there's always at least one genius editor who will be using that as a basis to push their silly POV much to the frustration of everyone else. It's a select few decisions that seem to have this issue, so it's better to just remove those mentions for everyone's sanity; the effort it takes to remove the content decisions compared to the time dedicated to explaining why that is out of date and not binding is quite a bit less in the grand scheme of things. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What about what I quickly drafted out below? Vassyana (talk) 00:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't oppose it because it might reasonably work on the future dispute (and a way of handling them). However, I cannot actively support it as a removal serves more than that. The first reason is similar: a removal of that bit (per the request) would prevent an unnecessary (and what ought-to-be resolved) future dispute as no genius would be able to play around with the fact that the content matter has been removed altogether. The second is to ensure consistency as I remarked below - if Steve Smith was in a position to serve the rest of his term, I'd expect him to be consistent in the way he dealt with principle 15). The final reason is important: the fundamental and simple rule which has not really ever changed - AC does not and should not decide content, be it then or now. That it may have been their understanding/knowledge/example of how our policies worked at the time and that it was done with the greatest of intentions is really not good enough to keep it in my opinion (the same goes for saving an ego, or because it's too time-consuming to add 4 tildes in support of a similar proposal to principle 15). The amendment request was caused by the then-AC's "throwaway remarks" as some users charitably might call them, so it would seem unnecessary for the Community to have to address problems with individual AC decisions (particularly content issues) in its policy/guidelines or for AC to try to keep it in its decision...this is especially given that the now-AC apparently agrees, and, is in a position to resolve the issue through relatively simple procedure - removing the issue altogether. Though again, I wouldn't oppose your suggestion; just that I'd actively support removal. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well given that Fred seem to have noticeably been absent when similar issues have arisen, I don't see what the incentive would be for him to pop up and say "yes, that's not really what I meant in the long term - cut 2006's now-obvious-and-spotted mistakes from the decision". I don't see a reason why we can't proactively deal with the issue; why wait for the genius to pop up when that's what this amendment request seems to want to avoid based on past experience? If I wasn't busy in July, I'd have advised you to deal with these at the same time as when principle 15 of the decision was being dealt with. This just becomes weird and inconsistent if you're making amendments a few months ago, but now you want to say some parts of the decision aren't binding anymore.... Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't around in July. I've been absent most of the year. I'm around now and the discussion caught my attention. I don't see why there would be any conflict between the removal of certain examples and the idea below. I just don't see it as a priority and it does concern me somewhat that it would be reinforcing the letter-law use of ArbCom decisions, but it's not in opposition to my rough suggestion. Either way, I think it is important to de-emphasize ArbCom case law wikilawyering and emphasize the extant, mature community policy. Personally, I believe if an admin runs across someone playing those hairsplitting games, they should take care of that problem. If I run across a case on ANI or AE, that's what I intend to do, even if it is just providing a fair warning that lines are being crossed. That's all my opinion of course and you're welcome to grab a few salt grains with it. Vassyana (talk) 03:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed; either way is better than none of the above. We're in particular agreement about handling that problem. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How would you phrase such an edict, Vassyana? It needs to be incorporated into the finding so it can be referred to. jps (talk) 13:54, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Something like, "X and Y from Decision Z are not binding policy. The Arbitration Committee recognizes that the community has rules in place to deal with this topic area. Editors should refer to the Neutral Point of View and Fringe Theories policies and noticeboards (NPOV, FT) for current guidance, per community norms." Probably not perfect, but I think the gist is clear. Vassyana (talk) 00:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I would likely have supported these changes (and a number of others) if I had been an arbitrator when the Pseudoscience case was decided in 2006, but I am not convinced that any infelicities of the wording are doing any actual harm some four years later. (I'd reconsider this conclusion if there were a showing that the wording is being thrown in people's faces as pretermitting legitimate content or categorization arguments.) Perhaps it would be sufficient if I and other arbitrators observed here that the examples given in the decision do not constitute binding rulings by the Arbitration Committee. Perhaps Fred Bauder, who wrote the decision, would care to offer his perspective on the matter. I'd also like to welcome my former colleague Vassyana, who has commented above, back to this page. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:29, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tend to concur with Vassyana. It's four years later, and the community has moved this along; we're not in the business of reworking what is now the community's guideline, and that the community is certainly at liberty to update as it feels appropriate. Risker (talk) 02:42, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the best thing here is to simply remind everyone that examples in decisions are just that: examples. They are, by definition, not exhaustive or definitive. While they might have been helpful to clarify things at the time, they are not binding. — Coren (talk) 16:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rewriting such as this should only really be done within a new case, though I am aware that we have engaged in rewriting previously on this very case (as mentioned above by the filers). See here. I also think what I said previously on an earlier clarification request applies: "I've always been uneasy about the practice of quoting ArbCom principles in policies, especially very old principles [...] please don't ask ArbCom to participate (from RFAR) in the editing of policy [...] Carcharoth (talk) 23:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)" and also what Newyorkbrad said at about the same time: "There are several paragraphs of the Pseudoscience decision that venture more closely to content or policy rulings than would normally be found in one of our decisions. [...] Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)" Given that last quote, it might be useful to pass motion to add a disclaimer, similar to what Vassyana has proposed above, to the case. But to then avoid further messing with what is now a very old case. Carcharoth (talk) 23:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: User:Koavf

Initiated by —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ (per User:Shell Kinney) at 03:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
User:Koavf/Community sanction
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. Koavf is limited to editing with a single account.
  2. Koavf is prohibited from editing pages relating to Morocco and Western Sahara, broadly construed. This includes talk pages, and other related discussions.
  3. Koavf is subject to an editing restriction (probation). Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be disruptive, he may be banned from any affected page or set of pages. The ban will take effect once a notice has been posted on their talk page by the administrator and logged below.
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

None outstanding, but all users who commented at AN have been notified.

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Note: these will be added after I have submitted this proposal, so that I can post a static diff of this page to the users' talks.

Statement by Koavf

This has a long history and you can go down the rabbit hole following this from ArbCom to AN to user talk pages and back to ArbCom (e.g.), but basically put: I have three editing restrictions noted above and I would like them lifted. My lengthier proposal and rationale from before are copied and pasted:

I am under a community sanction editing restriction with three clauses. I am:

  1. Limited to editing with a single account.
  2. Prohibited from editing pages relating to Morocco and Western Sahara, broadly construed. This includes talk pages, and other related discussions.
  3. Subject to an editing restriction (probation). Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be disruptive, he may be banned from any affected page or set of pages. The ban will take effect once a notice has been posted on their talk page by the administrator and logged below.

While I have had further blocks (including two in the past two years), these criteria have only been invoked once and subsequently overturned through a good-faith appeal. Five prior cases involved 1RR/3RR violations, including ones that were related to Western Sahara only in the broadest possible sense (e.g List of states with limited recognition.) It is possible that I have made some other small edits to articles related to this issue (I have made many edits since then), but I have not made any substantial edits to these topics, nor has any user complained that I have (including blocking admins.)

As I stated in my request for rollback re-institution, I am a reliable editor who has not recently engaged in edit-warring and is constructive in his edits. I have used my roll-back ability (as well as Huggle and Twinkle) to fight vandalism, I have made several thousands constructive edits, I have had articles promoted to FA status through my own work and collaboration with others, and if you speak with users who have known me over the last five years, you will find that I have been an increasingly thoughtful and trusted member of the community. I have helped new users and made several proper posts to AN/I and AN/V to help the community avoid edit-warring and vandalism. I feel like I have reached a level of maturity such that this edit restriction is not necessary in practice or theory; in the three years that it has been in place, I have become a much more sober-headed and constructive editor who is trustworthy. I do have a long block history, but note that there are other editors who have longer ones but have been recognized as reliable and helpful editors who no longer have editing restrictions--including editors who began as vandals.

In regards to the three specific restrictions:

  1. I have never edited with another account and I have posted all of my anonymous IP edits on my userpage. The only checkuser investigation on me was closed as inappropriate.
  2. I have respected this content restriction and have avoided Western Sahara-related topics with the exception of reverting vandalism and the most tertiary topics (e.g. List of United Nations member states, where I have not edited on the topic of Western Sahara in years.)
  3. This restriction could still be placed on me at any time as appropriate, but--as noted above--it has only been invoked once and then rescinded.

I look forward to these restrictions being lifted in part so that I can be recognized as a trusted editor and in part so I can begin to edit Western Sahara-related articles again (the quality of which has generally languished for several years, as I was the only active editor on this topic.) Both my ability to edit and the quality of the encyclopedia will be enhanced by the lifting of these restrictions.

Statement by other editor

Statement by Fetchcomms

As I stated at the AN thread, I don't see any major issue with lifting the restrictions. Not sure what else I have to say; I was never involved in the original sanctions. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@NW, I'm not a clerk but I think I updated the template. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:58, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Shell, I don't think it was consensus not to remove the sanctions as much as lack of participation either way. It might just because not many people are familiar with this case and Koavf's current activity. I interpret lack of input as "I don't care" over "status quo, leave them in place". /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Jayron32

Again, my opinion has not changed just like Fetchcoms. At the same AN thread above, I noted that I saw no problem with lifting restrictions 1 & 2. Restriction 3 needs to remain in place for some time while he his allowed to edit in the problematic area. While Koavf has remained in good standing when editing outside of the Western Sahara/Morocco area, we have no evidence one way or another how things will go once he starts to edit in that area. I think that keeping restriction 3 in place, for say at least another 6 months or so, will allow us to see if things go well. If they do, then we can recind that restriction as well. So my opinion is that ArbCom should look at recinding restrictions 1 & 2, and leave 3 in place for six months as a sort of "trial period" for editing the Western Sahara related articles. --Jayron32 03:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Clerk notes

I...tried to updated Template:ArbComOpenTasks, but I couldn't figure out how to do so. Could another clerk take a gander at it? NW (Talk) 16:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • In the absence of any commentary to the contrary, a week after this has been filed, I am hard pressed to think of a reason to deny this request, and would likely support lifting it. Risker (talk) 02:29, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not entirely clear where ArbCom were involved in the past here. If this is indeed within our remit to modify, I would have no problems with something like Jayron suggested above. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • ArbCom competence For what it's worth, I posted here because I was told to post here. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since appeal to the community resulted in a consensus not to remove the sanctions just a few months ago, there's no obvious reason for us to disagree with that decision. If you'd like the sanctions lifted, you need to convince the community that you've resolved the issues. Shell babelfish 00:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request to amend prior case: Date delinking

Initiated by Gigs (talk) at 20:22, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. 7.1) Lightmouse is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia.
  2. 8) Lightmouse is limited to using only the account "Lightmouse" to edit.
  3. Supplemental motion: "Nonwithstanding remedies #7.1 and #8, Lightmouse (talk · contribs) is permitted to use his Lightbot (talk · contribs) account for a single automation task authorized by the Bot Approvals Group. "Automation" is to be interpreted broadly to refer to any automated or semi-automated tools whatsoever."
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Amendment 1


Statement by Gigs

Lightmouse has engaged in high speed semi-automated editing without BAG approval in apparent violation of the previous sanctions, such as: [24] [25] [26] [27], as a small sample. These edits drew several complaints as to their accuracy and appropriateness, including feedback from myself of a general nature, before I realized that Lightmouse was under ArbCom sanctions. This is documented at: User_talk:Lightmouse/Archives/2010/October.

There are several currently pending BRFAs:

  1. Wikipedia:BRFA#Lightbot_7
  2. Wikipedia:BRFA#Lightbot_6
  3. Wikipedia:BRFA#Lightmouse
  4. Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/Lightbot_5

Note that the sanctions limit Lightmouse to a single BAG approved task, so it is unclear to me what action BAG should take regarding these BRFAs. Rlevse approached Lightmouse asking for an explanation of the apparent violation, but now that he is gone, I'm not sure if anyone is following up on this. I am asking for an official response from ArbCom in order to bring clarity and closure to this, regardless of whether my amendment is accepted.

My involvement in this is limited to relatively brief conversations last month on WT:MOSNUM and on Lightmouse's talk page urging him to take complaints about his semi-automatic editing much more seriously. Gigs (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comment by Gigs

To clarify, the sort of dismissive behavior that I observed on WT:MOSNUM and Lightmouse's talk page is what prompted my concerns. (i.e. [28] [29] [30]) This is exactly the same sort of behavior that lead to the sanction in the first place. Editing rates peaking at 5-8 edits per minute on systematically selected alphabetized articles surely does not fall under "manual editing". The editing stopped 2 weeks ago only because Rlevse approached Lightmouse and asked for an explanation of the apparent violation. Gigs (talk) 18:30, 12 November 2010 (UTC) may have been mistaken about causality 23:09, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that Lightmouse has just opened up two additional BRFAs for Lightbot.
Regardless of the nature of the current requests, Lightmouse disregarded sanctions while carrying out those thousands of AWB edits under the Lightmouse account. The sanctions reflected a general lack of ArbCom faith in Lightmouse to conduct semi-automated and automated operations in a non-disruptive fashion, which is why they were not constructed more narrowly. Lightmouse is effectively asking BAG to assist him in violating those sanctions by filing multiple BRFAs that would violate the sanctions if approved. This does not inspire any more faith in my eyes. Gigs (talk) 02:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Statement by Ohconfucius

I'm baffled too, but no more so than by this amendment. AFAIK, Lightbot hasn't been in operation for over a month now, BAG has been unresponsive to repeated requests for the bot. Lighmouse himself hasn't edited in two weeks, some 48 hours before Vanished 6551232 (talk · contribs) (aka Rlevse) posted his message on Lightmouse's talk page. Prior to those two weeks, I see nothing "high speed", just some 'normal' (by that, I mean manual) AWB actions at an average rate of 50 edits per hour to remove overlinked common terms (hour!, kilometer!!, minute!!!, ) and some years. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 15:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC), amended 02:18, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Gigs' "additional statement", I combed through Lightmouse's contributions history for the last 2,600+ entries. Therein, I noticed nothing incompatible with the editing speeds achieved for human-supervised AWB usage. I examined in excess of 50 edits, and found that rarely did each edit contain more than one or two changes, such as removing wikilinks to days of the week, years, and other common terms such as 'week', 'day', 'hour', 'second'... which I note is firmly endorsed by WP:Linking. There were occasionally more changes, which included insertion of '{{convert}}'. As for the complaints on LM's talk page... Rifleman complains here that Lightmouse has been systematically removing repeat links, implying that he should be careful not to disturb his misleading piped links notwithstanding; once again WP:Linking is firmly on Lightmouse's side. The diff used above of the post from pdfpdf clearly shows Gigs was aware of the belligerence of pdfpdf, who not only expressed his displeasure of having the {{convert}} foisted upon him in articles he had on his watchlist, calling them "non-consensus changes" (viz: "'If you think square kilometres are confusing, just remove them.' - For heavens sake! We are NOT your mother nor your housemaid nor your servant. YOU made these non-consensus changes. YOU fix them!!"), he repeatedly replaced the message despite its removal by the owner (and by me, a talk-page stalker) insisting it wasn't uncivil – I would actually call it harassment even though LM was firm but always polite with visitors to his talk page. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:20, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingpin13

Speaking somewhat as a member of the Bot Approvals Group, I firstly apologise for the slow progress of BRfA recently, there's only really been about three active BAG members approving bots over the past month. As I understand it, the previous case banned Lightmouse from making any semi- or fully-automated edits from any account. The amendment then permitted him to make some from a single account, Lightbot. The only edits explicitly approved by BAG were 50 trial edits, all of which are listed here, to be made from the Lightbot account, this was approved by Mr.Z-man (talk · contribs) here. The edits linked to by Gigs clearly show Lightmouse using the AutoWikiBrowser (a semi-automated tool) on his main account. This is very clearly disallowed by the ArbCom remedies ([emphasises added] "Lightmouse is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia", where "automation is to be interpreted broadly to refer to any automated or semi-automated tools whatsoever", amended by "Lightmouse (talk · contribs) is permitted to use his Lightbot (talk · contribs) account for a single automation task"), it was made abundantly clear in the amendment that the only account which the ban from using automation was lifted on was the Lightbot account (but the edits Gigs have issue with came from the Lightmouse account). In addition to this problem with the accounts getting muddled, the edit summaries used by the bot and AWB, are in my opinion, not clear enough (for example, the Lightbot edits do not make it clear that they were approved trial edits). Besides which, this clearly was not a dry-run/userspace test - it was a live run, with changes being made to the Wikipedia namespace mainspace. - Kingpin13 (talk) 09:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to John's message below. He appears to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. Lightmouse defended the bot edits as a trial. Unapproved bot trials may only be made in the op/bot's userspace. Often (but not in general) it is indeed preferable for trials to be made in mainspace. But only when approved by BAG at BRfA, which provides a review of these edits. As to Paragraph two of his comment, I wasn't referring to the trial approved at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/Lightbot_5, I made clear that that was the only approved trial, and linked to the edits made under that approval (I made this clear because it seems ArbCom wanted an update on what BAG had actually approved). My issue was with "the edits linked to by Gigs". Lightmouse claims these edits were also a trial. However, they were unapproved; without peer review; made in the mainspace; came from the Lightmouse account (this wouldn't generally be a large issue, as they were semi-automated, however this account was banned from making any semi-automated edits by ArbCom (this ban has not been lifted - it's only had an amendment made regarding the Lightbot account). In addition, considering the kind of edits made and the number (see Anomie's link) they should have been performed on a separate account even without the ban in place (see WP:AWB#Rules of use 2)); and in a large quantity - clearly not a suitable trial). Also Anomie makes similar points to mine below, and I agree with his statement. - Kingpin13 (talk) 14:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In reply to Kirill below: That is correct, the only edits approved by BAG were 50 trial edits under this BRfA. Per se, any other edits do not have BAG approval, including those listed ([31], [32], [33] [34]) and in-fact any semi/automated edits made from his own account, such as 4853 out of 5000 edits listed here. In addition, BAG wouldn't be able to approve these edits anyway (the AWB edits from Lightmouse's main account), as doing so would be overruling ArbCom - Kingpin13 (talk) 06:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


In general, it is preferable for trial runs to be made in mainspace, as was done here. [Note: mainspace, where articles reside, is not the same as "Wikipedia namespace".] Mainspace trial edits are preferable simply because they include (obviously) the full complexity of article text. Mistakes in edits in mainspace, if limited in number (as will be the case for trial runs) are easy enough to reverse. It's much better to find mistakes during a trial run, even if a few articles have errors until corrected, than to find errors when a bot goes live and is doing thousands of edits. Moreover, my review of Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/Lightbot_5 shows no indication that the trial run was supposed to be done anywhere other than mainspace - in fact, there was some discussion regarding how the fifty articles (for the trial run) would be selected in order to best test the bot. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 13:58, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Anomie

The only mainspace edits approved by BAG are the 50 trial edits for Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Lightbot 5, linked by Kingpin13 above. These 50 edits are not at issue; the issue is with the thousands of AWB edits made from the User:Lightmouse account and the fact that it seems impossible for Lightmouse to perform these edits without engendering controversy. I don't know whether the controversy is due to the edits, Lightmouse, or a combination of the two.

WP:Bot policy also allows for non-disruptive edits to the bot's or operator's userspace, and "limited testing of bot processes without approval, provided that test edits are very low in number and frequency, and are restricted to test pages such as the sandbox". Edits to live articles do not qualify for either of those two exceptions; if it were necessary to test on "the full complexity of article text", articles could be copied to a sandbox for editing or AWB could be run and the diffs viewed without actually saving the edits. And several thousand as a "test" is right out.

I also note that the issue of edit summaries was raised in Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Lightbot 4.

From what I've seen of his actions since Lightmouse's ban expired, I for one do not trust him not to repeat the same behavior that originally led to his ban. Immediately upon expiration of his ban, Lightmouse applied for the exact same approval that caused so much controversy the first time around. And it seemed every attempt to clarify and limit the request was met with an attitude of "I shouldn't have to do this", unclear or overbroad "clarifications", and language that seemed ripe for later wikilawyering. He also took up his task using AWB, despite not receiving approval as directed by ArbCom, and the claim here that Lightmouse thought he could make thousands of edits as normal work around his 50-edit trial on Lightbot 5 that was already completed a month earlier or any of his other requests that have not been approved for trial at all is patently ridiculous. Requests 6 and 7 are much more appropriate in scope, but at this point my AGF is expired. Anomie⚔ 17:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

As I understand it, the Lightmouse account can be used with automation relating to units of measurement. Coren said the expectation was “it would cover the ‘’normal’’ work around a 'bot’ task: That includes the usual dry runs in user space, the test runs okayed by BAG, and whatever minor tweaks are generally included in a single bot request”. I’ve done tests in accordance with this. BAG has been unable to respond for weeks if not months.

If I've misunderstood the situation, I'd be grateful for more clarity.

I'd like to correct the false impression that "The editing stopped 2 weeks ago only because Rlevse approached Lightmouse and asked for an explanation ...". I was told by one editor quoted in this discussion to "get a life" and sworn at (details not pleasant), well I do have a life outside WP which took priority over WP. I stopped editing articles on 28 Oct. Rlevse wrote a note on my talk page on 30 Oct. The event didn't precede the cause.

I'd like to correct the false allegation that I was 'dismissive'. From time to time, an editor will say that I shouldn't add metric units, in circumstances that aren't documented anywhere on WP guidance. Or they want me to add a different format/unit of their choosing. I always try to be polite. But sometimes the debate becomes circular or is entirely subjective. I may invite editors to take WP style issues to the WP style talk page, or I may take it there on their behalf. That's an attempt to be helpful and inclusive. Where I say that an editor is free to remove a metric unit or change it, I'm not 'dismissive', quite the reverse. I'm trying to collaborate and add calm.

I hope that helps. Lightmouse (talk) 11:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm grateful for the comment by BAG. It took two and half months to get approval for a 50 edit trial for the simple task of adding unit conversions using the Lightbot account. We've had a further delay of a month and a half waiting for comment on the trial. The trial edits were a success. The normal course for bot applications is that feedback about a first trial results in another trial. It's pleasing to see that this Arbcom case has given me the feedback that BAG would prefer a different edit summary, I'd be happy to amend that. While waiting for this bot to get approval, I've created more bot applications so that preliminaries can be dealt with now. I know that the workload for BAG and Arbcom is high, here the two entities have to collaborate on a bot application and the delays are inevitably longer. I think I'm being patient on an application that is technically quite simple and (where trialled) has been successful. I'd be grateful if BAG and Arbcom can find a way to move this application forward. Lightmouse (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tony1

Just a few observations:

  • It's all very complicated, probably even for experts.
  • BAG is seriously understaffed—to the point of being dysfunctional, it seems to me. We need to concentrate on revamping it in 2011.
  • As an observer, I found Anomie's contributions at one of those BAG applications by Lightmouse to be a bit negative and almost personal in its tone: I don't understand why.
  • Kirril, the diff you have pointed to: I may be wrong, but it's the kind of manual edit I'd make if using automation. Is LM restricted from removing links to years and to items such as "hours" (twice), which presumably were performed manually? Tony (talk) 08:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Any objections to this being archived? NW (Talk) 20:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Awaiting statements from Lightmouse and/or BAG; I'd appreciate it if someone could clarify whether Lightmouse has BAG approval for the edits he's making. Kirill [talk] [prof] 02:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Kingpin13: If I understand your statement correctly, the edits cited by Gigs ([35] [36] [37] [38]) were not approved by BAG? Could you please confirm whether my understanding is correct? Kirill [talk] [prof] 02:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tony: I'm not pointing out the edit as being problematic in and of itself; as you say, it looks like a reasonable thing to do. However, the conditions under which Lightmouse was permitted to resume using automated tools were very clear: whatever he does with them must be approved by BAG beforehand. My concern is that this isn't taking place, and that Lightmouse is essentially using automation without any oversight whatsoever, which is exactly the scenario that led to the original restriction on his editing. Kirill [talk] [prof] 19:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Awaiting statements and join in Kirill's request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thus far, I'm not convinced that action by us is needed, but I'm still open to further input. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:41, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per Kirill and Brad.  Roger talk 08:33, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also not seeing that action is required at this point. Risker (talk) 01:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lightmouse, now that Kingpin13 has confirmed that the edits cited by Gigs were not approved by BAG, could you please comment on why those edits do not contradict your ban? Shell babelfish 14:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's my understanding that the edits were permitted, as I mentioned in my comment above. I'm not sure if you saw that. I was worried that this wasn't clear enough so I made more than one request for clarity on the point.
    • I'd like to correct the false assertion that the current requests are "exact same approval that caused so much controversy the first time around". The big fuss and Arbcom case was about several editors removing Date links and other editors objecting. Nobody wishes to go through that again. The current BAG application relates to adding conversions to units, a popular task which would be tedious if done by hand and has had consensus throughout.
    • I've been accused of having an attitude of "I shouldn't have to do this", unclear or overbroad "clarifications". I don't have such an attitude. If the crime is failing to understand a question or failing to be understood, then all of us on this page are guilty. If Arbcom and all of us are going re-examine the 6 weeks of questioning prior to a mere 50 edit trial about converting feet and miles, then it will be a waste for all of us.
    • The debate about adding conversions isn't difficult yet has gone on for 4 months now with very little comment from BAG. I know they're busy but I'm at the back of the queue. I'm making a formal request that instead of debating it here at Arbcom, we debate it at BAG.
    • I hope that helps. Lightmouse (talk) 17:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Lightmouse, can you please explain how your edits here are related to unit conversions? Kirill [talk] [prof] 00:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to admit that, in Lightmouse's defense, BAG has been unable or unwilling to handle his requests fairly and reasonably swiftly. This may be due to under-staffing, or understandable (if unadvisable) reluctance to handle a potentially controversial matter; but it does seem to be as though his requests were not handled normally and that his work has stalled because of it. It's not so much that his requests have been declined more than that the goalposts to them being okayed have been moved. — Coren (talk) 14:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • That may be the case, though I'm not clear whether it's a problem only LM's requests are experiencing, or a more general backlog issue. In any case, I'm not sure what we can do here other than perhaps pulling together a group of bot experts to review arbitration-related automation questions separately from the normal BAG process. Kirill [talk] [prof] 19:25, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • In response to Kirill's question above, some detail in edits are manual. Furthermore, the scope is not merely 'unit conversion'. It's just simpler to say 'unit conversions' because that's easier for most people to understand and is mostly what it does. The scope (and activity) has since 2008 explicitly included removal of links to common units. The hour is a plain english term and a common unit. Can we get to an end point in days rather than adding more months of delay? Trying to help. Lightmouse (talk) 13:49, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Let's try and cut through this: Arbcom doesn't want to be BAG by proxy, BAG doesn't want to be Arbcom by proxy. The months are passing by and justice delayed is justice denied. It seems to me the best way out of this impasse is to have a decision at Arbcom level: I propose right here, right now, to delete "7.1) Lightmouse is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia.". Frustrated, but still trying to be positive. Lightmouse (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Wait, I don't see anything to suggest it would be a good idea to start ignoring 7.1, especially since this whole thing was triggered by you breaking the prohibition. I think it's all the more reason to have it more actively enforced. There's no question (in my mind) over if you violated the restrictions: you very clearly did. Personally I think what needs to happen is the supplement is reverted, and we go back to how things were before. - Kingpin13 (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • I for one fully agree with what Kingpin13 said. Anomie⚔ 20:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That may not have been clear, let me try again. Arbcom doesn't want to be BAG by proxy, BAG doesn't want to be Arbcom by proxy. The months are passing by and justice delayed is justice denied. There are lots of articles in need of gnoming edits and we're not adding value by months of occasionally-hostile debate or silence here and in BAG. It seems to me the best way out of this impasse is to have a decision at Arbcom level: I request Arbcom deletes "7.1) Lightmouse is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia.". Lightmouse (talk) 19:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lightmouse, if you want to make that request, you should do so as a separate amendment request, not buried here. You might want to wait a few weeks before doing so until this committee is fully staffed with the new group of arbitrators. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Thanks for letting me know. Lightmouse (talk) 20:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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