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Talk:SVD (rifle)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mr. Komori (talk | contribs) at 06:20, 26 July 2023 (→‎Requested move 20 July 2023). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Sniper rifle"

The beginning of this article says the SVD is a sniper rifle. It was developed as a DMR, and has 2 moa... it is definitely not a sniper rifle. Hell, the article even contradicts itself. Later down it says "The Dragunov is an original rifle design for several reasons. First, it was not meant for highly trained and specialized sniper teams, but rather for designated marksmen." That entire paragraph is a mess and interchangeably uses the terms "sniper" and "designated marksman". These are extremely different roles in the military

So yeah someone should probably update this article to be more accurate. If nobody has any argument against this I'll probably update it in a month.24.194.186.225 (talk) 05:01, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:07, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The "SVD-63" designation is nonsensical

The designation "SVD-63" is fictitious. It doesn't exist in Russian (it's always been SVD / СВД, no numbers), IZHMASH/Kalashnikov Concern never referred to it as anything but "SVD," there are no credible sources to suggest it's been used that way by the West as with "AK-47" for the AK, and precisely none of the other language versions of this article use "SVD-63" in their title - it is always an equivalent of "Dragunov sniper rifle" or "SVD" but never "SVD-63". Why is "SVD-63" the page title? What was the rationale for choosing this fictional designation? Why is it prominently used in the opening paragraphs like that's the weapon's actual name? What sources does "KnowledgeableHrvatica," whoever they are, have to back up the apparently unilateral decision to rename the article? The article title should be moved back to "Dragunov sniper rifle" or to "SVD (rifle)." I would do it myself if this platform had any level of care for people who can't or don't wish to create an account, and I have no interest in doing so. If you're thinking of arguing that titling the article "SVD (rifle)" would make it redundant due to the letter "V" already implying it is a rifle, let me point out that only someone familiar with firearms and the Russian language would know that. "SVD (rifle)" has parentheses, the purpose of which is to differentiate the article from the other subjects on Wikipedia that are also called "SVD." Arguing about redundancy is frivolous and choosing a fictitious designation in its place is even more ridiculous. 176.154.184.23 (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to SVD (rifle). SVD-63 is a not even a real designation per discussion below and #The "SVD-63" designation is nonsensical above from 176.154.184.23 (talk). (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:56, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

SVD-63 → Dragunov sniper rifle – Per WP:COMMONNAME, on account of the fact that "SVD-63" appears to be a made-up designation that does not appear in any of the sources. Loafiewa (talk) 23:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 02:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:51, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you. VSS Vintorez and AS Val may also need the same treatment. The original articles were merged for no particular reason. 176.154.184.23 (talk) 00:11, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I was the one who merged the VSS and AS pages. The reason for doing so was simply because there was significant overlap between the two pages, as they are mechanically identical and share the same development history. For example, the AK-74 does not need separate pages for its different variants with different buttstocks. KnowledgeableHrvatica (talk) 02:17, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconded on AS Val and VSS Vintorez being seperated. If we decide to merge "similar weapons that are mechanically identical" then we may as well merge the pages for Mk 12 Mod 0 SPR and any number of AR-15 platform rifles. Or, merging AKM with AK-74, and so forth. Mechanical similarities does not make the same rifle.
    If they were to be merged, regardless, VSS Vintorez should be the one to take priority, as that rifle was developed initially, however since similar mechanisms doesn't seem to be the precedent on Wikipedia.. 120.16.18.94 (talk) 12:04, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, although SVD (Rifle) may be a better name than "Dragunov Sniper Rifle". KnowledgeableHrvatica (talk) 02:14, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I use Google translate from the Russian Dragunov sniper rifle wiki article the lead says; The 7.62 mm Dragunov sniper rifle (SVD, Index GRAU - 6V1) is a Soviet self-loading sniper rifle developed in 1957-1963 by a group of designers led by Evgeny Dragunov and adopted by the Soviet Army on July 3, 1963, together with the PSO- 1. SVD-63 is not mentioned in Wiki Russian. This points to Dragunov sniper rifle and SVD as common designations in the land of origin for this rifle. When I Google SVD-63 not many English results are reported. This designation might be (semi) official and would be parallel to common AK-47, AK-74, etc. small arms designations. I think SVD (Rifle) is a reasonable proposal that avoids sniper or designated marksman rifle discussions.--Francis Flinch (talk) 10:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Firearms has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 02:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 02:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Soviet Union has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 02:36, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per notice from the firearms-board. IMHO a wise choice would be Dragunov SVD sniper rifle. Best Ｔｏｍ (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that be a redundancy similar to 'ATM machine'? Loafiewa (talk) 18:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"SVD(rifle)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect SVD(rifle) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 25 § SVD(rifle) until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 05:14, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 July 2023

SVD (rifle) → Kalashnikov Concern SVD – Under WP:Firearms, the names of firearm articles should start with the proper name of the manufacturer, followed by the firearm's name. Kalashnikov Concern's English Website: SVD JTC22 (talk) 09:56, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Kalashnikov Concern did not exist in the Soviet Union, where this rifle was initially introduced, so not the initial manufacturer. It is not popularly called that either, rather just SVD or [ Dragunov SVD ] instead (or just Dragunov). -- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 17:25, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is the same company, they just rebranded. Kalashnikov Concern is also the manufacturer of the rifle. WP:Firearms, states that the manufacturer of the rifle must be placed first. JTC22 (talk) 10:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is certainly not the same company, the machine factory company and the design bureau both ceased to exist. Successor companies later were formed out of the factory. And we don't name articles after rebranded or marged companies. Same as how it is McDonnell-Douglas F/A-18 and not Boeing F/A-18. Or how it is the Plymouth Prowler and not the Stellantis Prowler -- Soviet Era Weapons are named for their design bureaus, and not the machine factory. The machine factory was ordered to produced the design of the design bureau, so is a client manufactory, similar to Norinco. -- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 05:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The naming convention of WP:FIREARMS is prefaced with "This information is not a formal Wikipedia policy or guideline, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community." As such, it does not overwrite the standard naming convention, specifically WP:COMMONNAME, which states that articles should use the most commonly used in reliable secondary sources, of which I have not been able to find a single example that uses the name "Kalashnikov Concern SVD". Loafiewa (talk) 18:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SVD (rifle) suffers from RAS syndrome. SV, in English stands for sniper rifle. Adding a disambiguator (rifle) just makes it redundant. I fail to see how Kalashnikov Concern SVD goes against WP:COMMONNAME. It keeps the SVD name on the tittle. That is why I brought up, WP:Firearms, so we can add the manufacturer of the SVD. Kalashnikov Concern is the main manufacturer of this rifle, especially if we disregard foreign copies whether licenced or not
SVD (rifle), simply means Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunov, in literal English translation; Sniper Rifle Dragunov/Sniper Rifle Dragunov. So do you see my point? SVD (rifle) would mean, Dragunov Sniper Rifle (rifle). Which is far too redundant.
Common names used in English secondary sources for this rifle;
  • SVD - too ambiguous, multiple articles shares similar name/abbreviation.
  • Dragunov SVD/SVD Dragunov - also suffers from RAS syndrome. Since D, in SVD stands for Dragunov.
  • Dragunov Sniper Rifle/Dragunov sniper rifle - no issues with this, but SVD is more commonly used in the rifle's country of origin and on English based secondary sources.
I am not trying to argue against WP:COMMONNAME, but simply adding the manufacturer's name per WP:Firearms.
JTC22 (talk) 09:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds weird for Russian speakers, but for the average English speaker (I'm pretty sure the vast majority of English speakers don't know Russian) is perfectly fine. To pick up a quote from the very same RAS syndrome article you mentioned: "Not all repetition is bad. It can be used for effect ..., or for clarity, or in deference to idiom. 'OPEC countries', 'SALT talks' and 'HIV virus' are all technically redundant because the second word is already contained in the preceding abbreviation, but only the ultra-finicky would deplore them.' (...)".
I'm sorry, but your arguments sound like pedantry to me. Mr. Komori (talk) 22:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If a certain level of redundancy is accepted, wouldn't Dragunov SVD be a better name than SVD (rifle)? Since it is more commonly known as the SVD Dragunov in English based sources? JTC22 (talk) 13:20, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well... we have Sukhoi Su-35 (Sukhoi Sukhoi 35), Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-17, Armalite AR-15, Airbus A380, etc. -- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 23:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean you agree with SVD Dragunov being a better name than SVD (rifle)? JTC22 (talk) 00:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With the formatting of the other articles, it would be better as Dragunov SVD NATURALDAB -- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 05:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm neutral on whether it should be written as either Dragunov SVD or SVD Dragunov. JTC22 (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The SVDK should also be merged to this article per WP:Firearms. JTC22 (talk) 06:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm neutral, given that reputable sources (such as Janes or Osprey) they either refer to it as the Dragunov SVD (sniper rifle) or the SVD (sniper) rifle. Mr. Komori (talk) 06:19, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. Komori (talk) 01:02, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment @Mr. Komori: So it would seem that SVD Dragunov is more commonly used in English based secondary sources, and it is more recognisable with this name rather than SVD (rifle). Given that a certain degree of redundancy is accepted, Not all repetition is bad. It can be used for effect ..., or for clarity, or in deference to idiom.
I would also like to bring everyone's attention towards the SVDK article. Shouldn't that be merged with this article per WP:Firearms? JTC22 (talk) 01:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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