User talk:Joe Roe

WP:ANI discussion

See WP:ANI#Joe Roe. Fram (talk) 08:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Can I offer a friendly piece of advice? I've been on the receiving end of Fram when we've disagreed over something, including being dragged off to ANI and my conclusions are this. Firstly, I've found Fram tends to be at his most abrasive and incivil when he's right about something; that doesn't make it appropriate to be incivil of course, but it does make it harder to take action because people turn up to ANI and think "well, actually, Fram's right", particularly when the other party responds in kind. Which leads on to .... secondly, in a high-profile discussion like this, there will be other people who can make the case of who's right and who's wrong independently for you, and so the best thing to do here is ignore the discussion and do something else. I think by replying to everyone and keeping the discussion going, you've harmed your case; obviously Fram has done this too, but not to the same extent, in my view. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:07, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

That's sound advice from Ritchie333, Joe. You and I have had our ups and downs but I'd hate you to end up losing your bits for being right. ANI is the very breeding ground for the peanut gallery to dig up enough dirt to look like a pattern in the sand and send an admin to the coven of governance obsessives where the usual outcome is being stripped of your T-shirt and thrown in an oubliette from whence there is neither return nor right of appeal. Any reputation you had for doing anything good for Wikipedia will be torn to shreds and thrown to the wind. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you both, really. I've of course had my share of run-ins with Fram too, and while I once agreed with the old "worst when he's right" chestnut too, I changed my mind a long time ago. They're not right, either in general or in this specific case, they're just single-minded and very good at spinning a narrative. The irony here is that I spent a huge chunk of my time and energy on that coven of governance obsessives trying to get Fram out of a site ban... I should have saved it to speak up for those who actually deserved it.

But I take your point about ANI. This is only my second time round there, I think, and my instinct to be as responsive as possible was clearly very naive. I will disengage now and sorry for reacting poorly to your first intervention, Ritchie333.

@Kudpung: I think at some point we might want to follow up on the "WP:DRAFT is only an essay" sentiment expressed there w.r.t. NPP, though. – Joe (talk) 14:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Years ago I was partly instrumental in getting the Draft namespace created and the 'Incubator' deprecated. I'm heavily involved at the moment with another NPP issue and when that's over I'll take a break and go back to my semi-retirement until it's time to write my user guide for the next coven election. I'll mention it though to MB and Novem Linguae, the NPP coords, who can look into the entire palaver because there is so much controversy over the use of drafts that nobody really seems to know what they are supposed to be doing (I do though, and it's in keeping with the reasons why 'Move to draft' exists). What we don't want is for the Draft space to become simply another name for the old Incubator. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:44, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Joe. I hope you're doing okay despite the ANI. I think it would be good for you to briefly engage, so that the discussion can be wrapped up. A majority of participants does seem to have a different view of involved as you do. Femke (talk) 09:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

• Hi, Joe. I'm very sorry for this, I feel responsible. The WP:ANI discussion is too complex for me to understand but I don't think you've done anything wrong. I've returned to see my Autopatrolled status has been removed, even though I'd not got round to using it. And to have my almost three years of work, that I have spent hundreds of hours on, to be completely disregarded has made me feel really low. I'm now thinking of leaving Wikipedia for good. Thanks. Moondragon21 (talk) 14:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Moondragon21: No no, I'm sorry that you got dragged to ANI over this. I at least signed up for this when I became an admin... the whole point of autopatrolled is that you shouldn't even notice you have it. And I know what you mean, these kind of discussions really hollow out my enthusiasm for this project too. I don't know if it will help, but I always try to remember that the people who hang around places like ANI are a tiny, unrepresentative subset of the wider editing community, and not at all representative of the millions of readers who have learned something because your work here. – Joe (talk) 08:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

  • @Joe Roe: Thank you. User:Moondragon21 talk 16:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	Thank you for such a wonderful contribution. Kioumarsi (talk) 15:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

@Kioumarsi: Thank you, happy editing. – Joe (talk) 08:54, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Undeletion, draft

Hi Joe,

Someone on the section suggested me to message you for unblocking a page and move it to Draft, actually i want to fix the page and add some information there along with new references. I shall be thankful if you could restore the page.

Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion - Wikipedia Slackyboy (talk) 14:27, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello Slackyboy. The Wikipedia community decided that Phougat was not notable enough for a separate article in 2021 (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anjali Phougat) and then again just a few months ago (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anjali Phougat (2nd nomination)). Unless there has been a significant change, I don't see the point in restoring it. Has somebody asked you to edit this page? – Joe (talk) 05:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello Joe, no, no one told me to edit the page or ask me to work on it. It's not a paid to edit work I am a journalist myself so was covering NYFW 2022 last month and saw some designer there including Anjali and now I see she has no Wikipedia page. I understand that the page was deleted but in two months I am seeing enough references of the entity such as Cannes coverage, Times of India, Forbes, and many others. So is it possible to re-create the draft and remove the previous references and add new. I would like to clarify I am not hired by them or not asked to edit page and I am not being paid, if i was then I would have disclosed it as a paid editing.  Slackyboy (talk) 08:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

It's a no, sorry. If you want to have another go at the article, you'll have to start it from scratch. I'm also pretty sure it will be deleted again, just to warn you. – Joe (talk) 09:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Your comments at RfA

In response to what you have written at RfA:

• You have now chosen to misrepresent my username/misname me three times. My Wikipedia name is Gusfriend and not Gus. The only time I have ever used that was to provide an example of how I could change my signature if I wanted to use it. Could you please fix that at the RfA?
• I still believe that someone's signature is not sufficient for me to oppose administratorship for someone but it is sufficient for me to be neutral rather than support a candidate. Which is exactly what I wrote.
• There have been recent editors who have opposed at AfC based on number of GAs and other reasons. I realise that you disagree with my reasons but that does not make them invalid.
• You have said twice that I am doing it to make a point which is not true. Gusfriend (talk) 10:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

As I have said, you're perfectly entitled to think that the signature policy is wrong, but repeatedly bringing it up as a way to fault other editors in unrelated discussions (the ANI thread about me, now the RfA) is disruptive.

I think you'll find it's quite normal to abbreviate usernames in comments, as you recently did here, for example. If you do not wish to be referred to as "Gus" I suggest you change your username or signature to something that is not readily shortened to "Gus". – Joe (talk) 10:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Changes to the functionary team

At his request, the Oversight permissions of DGG are removed. Also at his request, the Checkuser permissions of Joe Roe are removed. The Arbitration Committee sincerely thanks both DGG and Joe Roe for their service as an oversighter and a checkuser, respectively.

For the Arbitration Committee, Maxim_(talk) 16:31, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Changes to the functionary team

New Page Patrol newsletter October 2022

Hello Joe Roe,

Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.

Awards: Barnstars were given for the past several years (thanks to MPGuy2824), and we are now all caught up. The 2021 cup went to John B123 for leading with 26,525 article reviews during 2021. To encourage moderate activity, a new "Iron" level barnstar is awarded annually for reviewing 360 articles ("one-a-day"), and 100 reviews earns the "Standard" NPP barnstar. About 90 reviewers received barnstars for each of the years 2018 to 2021 (including the new awards that were given retroactively). All awards issued for every year are listed on the Awards page. Check out the new Hall of Fame also.

Software news: Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have connected with WMF developers who can review and approve patches, so they have been able to fix some bugs, and make other improvements to the Page Curation software. You can see everything that has been fixed recently here. The reviewer report has also been improved.

NPP backlog May – October 15, 2022

Suggestions:

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Backlog:

Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!

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Diff hiding

Hello, Special:Diff/1116775292 can you hide this version because of annoying posts? I would be glad if you also hide the username thanks --5.46.31.201 (talk) 08:14, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Okay, done. I'll assume this was a 'temporarily compromised account' situation. – Joe (talk) 08:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

New Pages Patroller

Hello! Can you please grant me new page patroller rights? I've done quite a bit of it in the past; however, I stopped doing it for a few years. When I wanted to start doing it again, apparently it had become a privileged action. So, I went to another admin to request the privilege, but he said that I needed to go to WP:PERM. I went there and placed the request. There's been no response. I found an admin that seemed to be active there and asked him/her for the permission, but they haven't responded. I was wondering if you could grant me the permission. I appreciate your help! Thanks! It's me... Sallicio!^{$\color {Red}\oplus$} 12:35, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

It looks like WP:PERM/NPP is backlogged. I'll take a look. – Joe (talk) 12:53, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! It's me... Sallicio!^{$\color {Red}\oplus$} 12:14, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Your ANI comments on Pratyeka

I just wanted to thank you for adding some balance to the conversation about Pratyeka's departure at ANI. While I agree that their edit summaries were overly ferocious and inappropriate, I do think Wikipedia is teetering in an existentially delicate state at the moment. Actually adding new material and editing in main-space (the key thing on which Wikipedia depends) is a really stressful business. It is so, so frustrating, and I worry that the typical life-cycle of a Wikipedian is now to arrive, enthusiastically edit, get reverted by wannabe-Cluebot-people fighting to get their finger on the trigger, watch their article linger in AfC for months; and if they put an article in main space themselves, watch stupid things inflicted on it by a page-patroller who doesn't know the subject. After six months of this, there are two outcomes: they either drift off in disappointment, or they mutate into a wannabe-admin, spending their time at AfD, the notice-boards, and doing non-admin closures of things in hopes that one day someone will recognise their dedicated behind-the-scenes activities. Anyone who has the audacity to suggest that finding a reference to support a currently-unsupported (but quite possibly true) statement is better than deleting the statement will be shot down in flames. With attitudes like this, why would anyone bother writing in main-space or trying to improve the encyclopaedia? It's even worse if you try to edit as an IP (I've done that), where you might just as well tag all your edits "vandalism" in the edit-summary.

It was originally a principle of Wikipedia that articles need not be perfect, because this is a work in progress: they will always be improved. Now, unfortunately, we seem to have moved to a principle that if anything about an article is not perfect it must be deleted on sight, and anyone who suggests otherwise is evil; this is not conducive to good writing or good scholarship.

If we can't find a way to welcome those who actually contribute factual information, or improve the sourcing of the factual information we have, then we're going to degenerate into a collection of battered old articles that are kicked around as the objects of argument, incomprehensible maths articles that exist to glorify their unofficial-owners rather than inform anyone, and plot-summaries of Telugu films. I do understand Pratyeka's frustration, even if I don't sympathise with how it was expressed. Elemimele (talk) 09:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I've also been involved with new page patrol for about six years now, so I can appreciate there are pressures on both sides (in short: NPP has to sift these kind of editors from a lot of bad faith garbage and is chronically under-peopled), but I do have a nagging feeling that we're morphing into a project that values 'defending' the status quo over expanding the encyclopaedia. I suspect draftspace has a lot to do with that. – Joe (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

• I often disagree with your takes, but I think what you said there was both true and necessary. I find it confusing and upsetting to see this happen so often, almost by clockwork: somebody who's been writing articles for years or decades will complain that their contributions are being aggressively removed, and the response is basically to get bent, with "legacy user" often used as a pejorative(!) and the consequence is one less volunteer on a project that is not exactly swarming with new blood. Thanks for saying what needed to be said. jp×g 18:59, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yazzi, Arizona

Would you consider reopening this one and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wymola, Arizona? Your closing statements says If there are other editors in good standing that think this article should be deleted, please feel free to open a new discussion and in both cases, multiple other editors in good standing have suggested that it should be deleted in the AFD. The keep !votes in those are all based on GNIS, a source about which WP:RSP says It is generally unreliable for its feature classes and it should not be used to determine the notability of geographic features as it does not meet the legal recognition requirement.

I don't think closing these AFDs where there was a significant push to delete simply because the nomination would out-of-process is productive; it's merely adding another layer of red tape to something that needs to happen anyway. I have half a mind to just redirect Whitlock Cienega, Arizona myself, based on the forming consensus at that AFD. Hog Farm _Talk 13:12, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: I've responded in greater length at ANI. I don't want to undo them all because I don't agree that enforcement of the harassment policy is "red tape" and think this is a case where process is important. But I'm happy to undo those two. And for the ones that were heading towards redirect, I agree that there's no reason for them to return to AfD. – Joe (talk) 14:32, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Genetic diagrams

Hi Joe! Thank you for this edit. Since these charts always look suspicious to me, I did some sleuthing. The chart was uploaded to Commons by @YgorC9. The same user has uploaded a number of similar charts there, including this file, which was then inserted after only 20 minutes to WP here. I suspect that some kind of sockery is going on here. Initially I thought it could be User:WorldCreaterFighter, but the POV doesn't match (at least with the edit trail of the Austrian IP). Austronesier (talk) 11:20, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Yeah, I also have a very strong suspicion that Kush3897 is not a new editor. Maybe Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/CadAPL/Archive or LambdofGod? But there are so many sockpuppeteers floating around ancient DNA now. Doug, do you have the capacity to take a quick look? – Joe (talk) 12:18, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

On a different but related note: I have experimented with a new format for integrating aDNA research into historical and archaeoloigical articles. Less obsessed with technicalities like haplogroup-combing and without the endless "Study A says this, however Study B says that". Putting everything into Wikivoice, I have tried as much as possible to make use of secondary sources plus some primary sources with a high citation-level to present what appears to be a relatively stable state-of-the-art in the field (ok, in one case also a minor primary source just to add a small detail that is not add odds with the key aspects of the major sources). Here's Afanasievo culture, another one is Hoabinhian#Genetic_links_to_ancient_and_modern_East_and_Southeast_Asian_populations (this is what it looked like before: Special:Permalink/1079454642#Ethnolinguistic affilation). What's your impression about it? I know how you feel about the endless disruptive POV-pushing and unencyclopedic editing surrounding this topic, but I believe we shouldn't leave it to LTAs and trolls. –Austronesier (talk) 13:00, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I think that's the way to do it, yes. I like the level of detail in Hoabinhian especially. I'm quite convinced that the average reader has no idea what the significance of haplogroup XyZ is and doesn't care to find out. To me, it's akin to including individual radiocarbon dates or artefact types in archaeology articles. There's no reason to include it unless it's specifically germane to some interpretation or dispute in the secondary sources. We should tackle this problem, I know. – Joe (talk) 13:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

CU is stale. I'll ping those who worked on the CadAPL spi @NinjaRobotPirate, Sir Sputnik, and Ponyo: . There doesn't seem to have been a LambdofGod SPI. Doug Weller talk 15:48, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

From a cursory glance at behaviour I don't think it's CadAPL, they have some tells that I don't see here. I've just started to run a check and there are a bunch of socks, so hold tight and I'll post my findings, either here or a relevant SPI.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 16:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ponyo thanks. I’m still not up to elaborate CUs. Doug Weller talk 17:37, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

reverted

greetings,

I noticed you reverted a minor edit I did in the Gobekli Tepe article recently. Please clarify why this is the case, as I was under the impression if a specific word has an article on wiki, one is to use the double brackets with said word when it's first encountered. Thank you Gizziiusa (talk) 12:37, 20 October 2022 (UTC)gizziiusa

Hi Gizziiusa. That is usually true, but in order to avoid a distracting, excessive number of links, our style guide says not to link to subjects with which most readers will be at least somewhat familiar. Notably, this includes major countries like Turkey. – Joe (talk) 12:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Duly noted. Thanks for the pro-tip. Gizziiusa (talk) 17:37, 20 October 2022 (UTC)gizziiusa

List of oldest continuously inhabited cities

This keeps getting edited by people who don't understand the words of the title. Or use poor sources. All the edits since my last one need examining I think. I just don't have the energy and have been hit by an emergency appointment with urology to see a surgeon Tuesday after some blood tests and the letter strongly implies I'll need surgery. The claim at Amesbury seems feebly sourced and is copied at Oldest town in Britain. Ok if you don't have time. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 11:26, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Changes to procedures for moving articles to draft space

Regarding this comment: I imagine you meant to say that we shouldn't rush into making changes? isaacl (talk) 13:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

That's what I thought too. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

PogingJuan

Hello, Joe,

I was just going through today's AFD log which contained all of those AFDs lodged by PogingJuan which you procedurally closed. Then I read the ANI discussion that you referred to. So, I was curious, a week later, what PogingJuan's response to all of this has been. In the past week since he filed the AFDs, he has not made one comment but he has returned to vote "Delete" on dozens of AFDs involving Arizona small towns (see Special:Contributions/PogingJuan), which is far away from his previous editing interest in Filipino people and the culture of the Philippines. I think he hasn't gotten the message and while there is nothing wrong with participating in an AFD discussion on any subject, I'm concerned when I see an editor hold on to a grudge like this despite the issue being brought to ANI and the majority of his AFDs being closed unceremoniously. I think without some acknowledgement from him, this might turn into ongoing harassment. Since you were involved in the ANI response, I thought I'd bring this update to you to see if it warranted a warning or some action taken. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:48, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Liz. Thanks for reminding me. !voting "delete per nom" on eight AfDs in four minutes, all of articles created by Onel and only one of them a 2nd nomination, looks like a clear resumption of hounding behaviour to me. I've blocked him. – Joe (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2022 (UTC)