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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Laurel Lodged (talk | contribs) at 07:39, 11 October 2022. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Second Battle of Kharkov in the 1940s

Resolved

This counteroffensive bears a very significant resemblance to German movements during the Second Battle of Kharkov, although I couldn't find any sources drawing the comparison. I think the similarities are worth some brief coverage in the article. 2603:7080:1E39:6663:B846:30D3:F26D:8321 (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the near encirclement at izyum yesterday was along a front almost exactly identical to the offensive AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 02:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please find some reliable sources which say this, otherwise it's original research which we can't use. Jr8825 • Talk 02:53, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah they both have one going from modern day Bakalia area. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:AnAustralianHistoryBuff and User:Jr8825, the source below makes this comparison. https://www.politico.eu/article/liberated-ukrainians-embrace-troops-kharkiv-ukraine-russia-war/ Mawer10 (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for finding this. "The move to impose a stranglehold around Izyum, a town with a pre-war population of 46,000, has rekindled memories of a major encounter fought in almost exactly the same territory in World War II." It seems reasonable to mention in this article that the Second World War battle happened in the same area. Jr8825 • Talk 15:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jr8825, looks great like this. Mawer10 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually the quote straight from the article! We'd need to put it in our own words first. Jr8825 • Talk 21:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Jr8825, how about that: “The move to dominate the surroundings of Izium was similar to a war fought there during World War II in which the Germans launched a major blow in the Second Battle of Kharkov against the Soviet Army.” Mawer10 (talk) 23:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've now added a mention to the "Counteroffensive" summary section. Thanks for your help. Jr8825 • Talk 23:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Units

UAF: -92nd OMBR

-80th AirAssault Brigade

-3rd Tank Brigade

-25th Airborne Brigade

-Azov SSO 'Kraken'

All proven by: https://militaryland.net/maps/deployment-map/ 92nd OMBR is proven by pictures too.

RAF: -Elements of the 3rd Corps

Proof:https://twitter.com/ControlCompli8/status/1568652373547171840/photo/1 "O" in an upside down triangle has been the symbol of the 3rd Corps since they've been deployed. Shhssh (talk) 22:01, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

first guards tank army (Russian) was stationed in Izyum and partook in this battle
source:https: https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1569550041194405890 AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 07:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not "opportunistic"

Seems that the Kharkiv operation was planned as the main offensive by the Ukrainian govt and that the Kherson "offensive" was merely a diversionary tactic. Ukrainian officials and military leaders have confirmed that Kharkiv was the main push to begin with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/10/ukraines-publicised-southern-offensive-was-disinformation-campaign DojoIrl (talk) 00:38, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've removed the "opportunistic" quotes but haven't yet added coverage of the misinformation campaign. Jr8825 • Talk 02:52, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which in turn is opportunistic in the event that Russia DID move soldiers instead of bringing new ones luckily it turned in Ukraine's favour Dawsongfg (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added section "prelude" to discuss this earlier today. Unburnable (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

outcome

I doubt the offensive will continue once izyum and the north is mopped up. if attacks do continue it should really then be added to a new page. I think that once this battle is over (if the current situation continues) the result sections should call this a decisive ukrainian victory because lets face it the russians have effectively been routed and the initiative of the war has completely shifted. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

a) We need sourcing which supports that, otherwise is WP:OR.
b) Any descriptive word alongside 'victory' is against WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX. Melmann 10:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First wait until the goodwill gesture is completed. We will then decide what to call it. Super Ψ Dro 12:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, any further counterattacks by Ukraine in the area should be called the Luhansk counteroffensive. 2603:7080:1E39:6663:88CD:3143:40DE:A3B0 (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When they become notable enough yes. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Called the 2022 Ukrainian Dombas counteroffensive. Mawer10 (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Fredericus 2.0" name

Only one source has used this unofficial naming "Fredericus 2.0", yet it somehow found its way on the article. Also, "Operation Fredericus" is a name Nazis Germany gave to its operation in WWII. Given the propaganda context by Russia on calling Ukraine a Nazi state, I wouldn't put "Fredericus 2.0" in the article until it's visible that this name is used by multiple reliable sources (official Ukrainian state and military sources, since they are the ones conducting the counteroffensive) that have decided to call it that. Идеологист (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah it kinda pushes towards the POV of "Ukraine is Nazis" etc Dawsongfg (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Jr8825 • Talk 01:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"counter offensive"

I'm just thinking does this really count as a count as a counter offensive? a counter offensive is generally an offensive that occurs soon after an enemy offensive to retake lost territory or a defensive position an example is the latter half of the Battle of Cambrai (1917), where the germans went of the offensive and recaptured the territory that the British had taken. But this offensive wasn't really in response to anything, the Russians took this land months ago, calling this a counter offensive seems like calling the Nivelle offensive a french counter offensive (at least to me). surely this operation which has clearly been planned for months and does not have any relation to Russian actions recently in the region, shouldn't it just be an offensive? AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 01:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree should just be "offensive". Volunteer Marek 02:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it's a counteroffensive. Sure it's not necessarily defensive etc but more reliable sources appear to call it one. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it’s technically not a counteroffensive in military terms, meaning a response to an offensive that takes advantage of tempo (it does seem to be an operation by multiple units, as opposed to a counterattack). But many sources appear to be calling this a counteroffensive, in more informal terms. I think use of the term still fulfils the layperson’s dictionary definition, as an offensive in response to a previous offensive.
A survey of media references to this operation might be helpful. —Michael Z. 14:15, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. UtherSRG (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive → 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive – How about renaming the article "2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive", as judging by the battles in Lyman and the reports of the Ukrainian army advancing towards Lysychansk and Severodonetsk, the actions did not limited to the Kharkiv region. Mawer10 (talk) 14:58, 11 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 22:23, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. This is better than the proposals of making another counteroffensive article. Super Ψ Dro 16:45, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Support until those become notable enough in their own right. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Gah Dawsongfg (talk) 00:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Ukrainian troops have entered the outskirts of Lysychansk, and a second battle for Lyman is underway. 68.80.24.8 (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I support it, but let's wait until the Ukrainian troops return at least Lyman or Svatove or Starobilsk, that is, any large population human settlement in the Luhansk Oblast. Because it is not even known yet whether the Ukrainian troops have crossed the Oskil River, that is, one part of the city of Kupiansk across the river, the villages of Borova, Kivsharivka, and Kupiansk-Vuzlovyi have not yet been returned. So far, I cannot say that the counteroffensive has gained significance for the entire eastern theater of operation, except for Kharkiv Oblast. Uliana245 (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Svatove has reportedly been recaptured, so that's at least one. The Kip (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is Svatove may have been abandoned and a flag put up by partisans. ISW’s map[1] shows it as “reported partisan warfare” but not in territory controlled by Ukrainian forces. (not saying this may not be changing as we speak.) —Michael Z. 18:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
agree partially, but this isn't really all that east (even if lysychansk falls) I feel like north or north east offensive would be more apt as this whole are is the northern most part of the battle front. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 08:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural comment. This discussion, despite looking like one, was not a formal WP:RM and thus not getting picked up by the bot. I've converted it into a normal RM so it displays on the list of current requested moves. SnowFire (talk) 09:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Some activity outside of Kharkiv doesn't make the title misleading as a whole; it was still vastly focused on Kharkiv oblast and the media has referred to it as such. If there's further battles, they might well be better covered in a new article anyway. Would be happy with 2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv offensive though since this is only sketchily a counteroffensive per above (normally a counteroffensive implies something a little more tactical on the scale of hours or days; months is pushing it). SnowFire (talk) 09:41, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Create a separate article for the Ukrainian counteroffensive for each oblast? I don't know, I personally would not agree with this idea. It is better to focus on articles about the theater of operations. It is obvious that the Kharkiv Oblast belongs to the eastern theater, for the most part. And this title of the article seems to be associated with the city, not the oblast. Uliana245 (talk) 10:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would also be fine with "2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv oblast offensive" if clarity is a concern. To my knowledge, there aren't any such major offensives in other oblasts, just the usual amount of fighting which seems not necessarily best covered with this attack. If "Kharkiv oblast" is a little over-specific, "Eastern" is far over-vague. SnowFire (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This operation has been going on for 6 days, not months. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 22:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Eastern" is quite misleading, as there are plenty of regions ever more eastern than the ones having been liberated.
On the other hand, Kharkiv is 70km away from where the main offensive took place in Balakliya; wouldn't it be more precise to call it the Sloboda Offensive in honor of the region where this took place, or the Oskil Offensive in honor of the river that was reached all along the new eastern front-line?
More suggestions: Balakliia Offensive, Offensive of Kharkivshchyna (= Kharkiv Region)... Densemk (talk) 12:46, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kupyansk-Izium counteroffensive could also work, as those were the two key towns ZSU aimed for during the counteroffensive. Jebiguess (talk) 13:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See Eastern Ukraine! Mawer10 (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was referred to as the Kharkiv offensive due to it being in Kharkiv Oblast, not necessarily near the city of Kharkiv itself. The Kip (talk) 00:33, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See Eastern Ukraine. Zero mislead. Super Ψ Dro 09:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sky News says "this will probably go down as the battle of the Oskil river".
I concur, "Battle of the Oskil River" or "Oskil River Offensive" would be the best name in my honest opinion. Densemk (talk) 13:36, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The offensive was going on not only in the Kharkiv region, including in parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions (the battles for Liman and Lysichansk were resumed) PLATEL (talk) 13:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support — A 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive already exists, and, given their connection, it would perhaps be best for their titles to resemble each other. — 86.127.85.178 (talk) 14:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It should be Northeast, no? After all the east also extends to Donetsk etc. 64.82.204.2 (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Kharkiv Oblast is the east of Ukraine! Not the north of Ukraine! Uliana245 (talk) 17:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support However, let's wait until they enter at least Lyman, Lysychansk, or even Rubizhne. Sarrail (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, Sviatohirsk has already been returned. And at the suggestion of the head of the Luhansk oblast military administration, Serhii Haidai, there are liberated settlements in the Luhansk Oblast. Probably near Lysychansk. Uliana245 (talk) 18:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Eastern offensive is too broad an area. keep as Kharkiv. Great Mercian (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support some sort of renaming. At the very least, the title should have the Kharkiv Oblast in its name. Renaming it the eastern offensive or counteroffensive may be appropriate. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 22:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support As the offensive is beginning to make advances into Luhansk Oblast. The Kip (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this offensive is in Kharkiv and was situated in a very central part of northern Ukraine, if anything I would say this bridge heads on the siversky Donets should ride here until significant and then become the second battle of siversky Donets, right now this article should be northern counter offensive or Kharkiv counter offensive. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 05:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OR. Kharkiv Oblast is in Eastern Ukraine and so are Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. This is what Northern Ukraine looks like. Super Ψ Dro 09:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Split - ISW says "Ukrainian forces won the battle of Kharkiv Oblast on September 11th".[1] It makes sense to me to have a separate page for the battle in Kharkiv, and the wider counteroffensive. ∰Bellezzilla Solo✡ Discuss 08:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - It took place almost entirely in Kharkiv, which in articles is seen as part of the northern axis. Let the article focus on Kharkiv, its where 99% of action occurred and where all sources will talk about. Also, most english sources refer to it as the 'Kharkiv offensive' --LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 13:50, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose  The offensive was mostly in Kharkiv oblast, the main result was liberating most of occupied Kharkiv oblast, and the efforts in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts were supporting and peripheral. At least so far, and I’m glad to revisit if and when it’s warranted. The Institute for the Study of War called it “The Russian defeat in the Battle of Kharkiv Oblast.”[2] —Michael Z. 18:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OPPOSE — the counteroffensive was focused on, begin in, and ended on ~11 Sep in Kharkiv Oblast. War scholars have already used the description Kharkiv breakthrough and exploitation in public articles. While other events will no doubt happen in this war, and of course, things may spring from this Kharkiv counteroffensive to other places, it would be incorrect to name them after the Kharkiv events that happened ~6 to 11 September. Naming it the "... eastern counteroffensive" would be particular incorrect. Cause even in the context of the southern one (Kherson, Mykolaev), this is the northern one; or perhaps the north eastern one. The other battles in the east, through the first half of Sept, were largely what they were in August, and thus not any particular counteroffensive. N2e (talk) 18:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If and when a significant counteroffensive occurs in Donbas (as opposed to current local counterattacks), it should get its own article. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:08, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support with reservations. We already have a 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive. The article titles need to match.
I feel that "2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive" and "2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive" are kinda clunky titles however, because they're pretty vague. Unburnable (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
^ They do, but they're just pro russian propogandists. 64.82.204.2 (talk) 16:07, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Actually in the Donbass there are counterattacks, Kharkiv obviously, so technically it's not wrong. Also those are pretty notable in the fact that well one's in the Luhansk oblast, and another is on the other side of a river. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. By renaming the article to eastern counteroffensive, we could easily fit in the liberation of Sviatohirsk, Ozerne, Bilohorivka, and the other various places bordering Kharkiv oblast. Jebiguess (talk) 22:19, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To the comment below: Great Raid of 2014. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:04, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that this comment of yours constitutes a legitimate argument. All mainstream media refer to this offensive as Kharkiv offensive. Wikipedia is not about inventing names for stuff because editors find those names more suitable.
If the scope is 6-11 September, then weak oppose, because this is more about specific events in Kharkiv oblast, the areas from which Russians withdrew (though it can be part of the wider offensive). If the scope will be expanded and include other areas (such as Donetsk oblast/DPR-controlled territory), then I would support.Oloddin (talk) 22:27, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As of now there's no advances made by Ukraine towards Luhansk Oblast just yet, primarily due to overstretched logistics I believe. If Ukraine started a new offensive later this month or next month I am willing to support a merge, which can result in a new title. MarioJump83 (talk) 00:03, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "ISW Daily Assessment". p. Notes of assessed control around Kharkiv image.
  • Oppose — This counteroffensive has mainly been directed at the northeastern portion of the country in or nearby Kharkiv, so far, and Ukraine seems to be focused on securing their new gains rather than continuing into Luhansk. However, this is based solely on the existing situation; preemptively moving it to a more broad "eastern counteroffensive" title only will work when it becomes more broad, and time will tell when, or if, that happens. If it does later within the same counteroffensive as what we saw this week, I would, however, be in support of the move. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 00:44, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The counteroffensive continues. “Ukrainian forces are continuing counteroffensive operations in eastern Ukraine, increasingly pressuring Russian positions and logistics lines in eastern Kharkiv, northern Luhansk, and eastern Donetsk oblasts”, says ISW. Mawer10 (talk) 16:33, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Great Mercian. Delukiel (talk) 03:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support With Ukraine now making advances east of Oskil river I'm confident enough that this should be moved soon. MarioJump83 (talk) 09:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a name change of some sort once the full extent of the counteroffensive becomes more obvious.--Torre degli Angeli (talk) 05:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose stop this nonsense. This is all fake news. You will be destroyed. This is your last "offensive" before winter before you freeze to death in the trenches 202.9.46.43 (talk) 15:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Average pro russian be like: Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 20:31, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That above comment unlike all other "Oppose" comments has nothing to do with the content of this discussion and with building this article. 2603:8000:B600:4000:3913:D1AA:A9AC:6B46 (talk)
  • Support I wonder what the UAF call it? Just because media call it 'Kharkiv' does not mean that's its name.Thelisteninghand (talk) 14:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • OpposeI think it is a good idea to characterize based on the province(Oblast), not just the Military Command Jurisdiction.Personisgaming (talk) 00:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Reliable sources by-and-large refer to this as the Kharkiv counteroffensive, not to mention that the offensive itself was specifically to retake the occupied areas of Kharkiv Oblast. The military actions taking place in Donetsk and Luhansk have been relatively small and don't portray a broader "offensive" in that area, nor are they explicitly linked with this. Furthermore I'd like to remind people commenting about the potential of a further offensive in Donbas that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, we're not in the business of naming articles based on possible futures. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per above reasoning. Suasufzeb 19:36, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the eastern offensive and the Ukranian advance continue. --Nicola Romani (talk) 08:47, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Russian losses

ZxcvU (talk) 06:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes these all do fit for claims. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:27, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article should be marked as finished with an Ukrainian victory on 11 September

This article should be marked as finished with an Ukrainian victory on 11 September, the day when Russia officially declared and executed the withdrawal of all its remaining forces west of the Oskil river. While later fighting in other theaters by other units is of course impacted by the successful Kharkiv offensive, they are distinct operations. This is also the apparent view of the entire media landscape. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CB:2F0C:858D:83C:571B:1656:657C (talk) 10:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree after September 11, the ukrainian haven't made any more gains in the region, every other supposed gain has been either in the sizer sky Donets area or a rumour. the nature of the fighting on the front has clearly revered to pre September 6 conditions and at the very least the Ukrainians have paused to reconstitute and prepare. additionally it is the view of the mainstream media and the popular consensus that the battle is now won. AnAustralianHistoryBuff (talk) 13:29, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the rename discussion succeeds, then it can't be considered that until all is liberated. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:28, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is already common knowledge in mainstream media that while a big "Southern Offensive" was one option considered by Ukraine during the summer, this was then discarded for one (West) Kherson Offensive and one Kharkiv Offensive. I do not know how long it will take until Wikipedia adheres to its own rules on this and goes with reality and public consensus here, but it will eventually happen. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/13/us/politics/ukraine-russia-pentagon.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CB:2F0C:858D:2495:6B36:90EF:C7E8 (talk) 10:29, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine crosses the Oskil/Offensive still Ongoing?

Multiple news sources, including the ISW, have stated that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have crossed the Oskil River and taken the eastern part of Kupiansk as well as some other surrounding areas. Should we change the article to say that the offensive is still ongoing or should this be considered a new offensive? Physeters✉ 00:14, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is the continuation of the same offensive, the ISW itself said that the "counter-offensive continues". Other versions of this article, the Russian one for example, also agree that the Ukrainian counteroffensive is not over. Mawer10 (talk) 01:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree it's not over. I'd base that on the fact that part of Kharkiv Oblast is still under occupation. There are also Ukrainian advances from the south to take Lyman many sources report - question is really where this article stops. Four Russian command post icons on Deepstate map in Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk have disappeared from 16th Sept - Ukraine advancing in Bilohorivka. All Donetsk/Luhansk Oblast - so maybe a new heading if that front to be included here. Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:01, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Phases have to be added to the counteroffensive

As we speak, not only Ukrainian forces already crossed Oskil River as early as Sep 13, but also as ISW and others said, the counteroffensive continues, because 6% of Kharkiv Oblast was technically not liberated from Russian occupation as of 9/11, but Ukrainian forces definitely won't let Russian troops to stabilize the front line and menace the whole railway lines on the western side of Oskil River either.

The most important thing I'd recommend is we can revamp the counteroffensive into different phases, so the first phase is very obvious---Lightning phase or Blitzkrieg, and it's from Sep 6 to Sep 11/12, when Russia announced its withdrawal from territories of Kharkiv Oblast west to Oskil River.

Then, the second phase starts from Sep 13, and we can name it consolidation phase, because besides reclaiming the remaining 6% of Kharkiv Oblast, Ukrainian forces can deter Russian forces from getting too close to Oskil River and establish the foundation to advance eastward into Luhansk Oblast. If Ukrainian forces manage to reclaim the entirety of Kharkiv Oblast, and enter Luhansk Oblast and reclaim territories there, then of course we may establish a new page as some suggested, "2022 Ukrainian northeast campaign" or the like, and this "2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv Counteroffensive" can be incorporated as a link within the page as a section itself, similar to what we do to those World War II battles and campaigns, especially those on Eastern Front, like Battles of Rzhev Salient or the 4 Battles of Kharkov. Bf0325 (talk) 04:28, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bf0325: I think if Ukraine continues the offensive it's primary goal is not going to be Kharkiv (since its almost entirely captured), but Luhansk. If that happens another article called Ukrainian Luhansk counteroffensive could be created. Viewsridge (talk) 17:06, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and actually there're some reports today stating that Russian troops are trying to beef up Svatove in Luhansk Oblast and some other towns in order to deter further Ukrainian advance from neighboring Kharkiv Oblast. Given that Russian president Putin recently stated his current aim now is just to seize the entirety of Donbas, therefore safe to say Ukrainian forces very likely will liberate Kharkiv Oblast to the east of Oskil River and reach the administration border between Kharkiv and Luhansk or even encroach into Luhansk. We'll see. Bf0325 (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There's a Sep 17 UK Telegraph article already touching upon the advance toward Luhansk--- [3]https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-delivers-another-blow-russia-135713404.html Bf0325 (talk) 02:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just commented in section above - should it be a new article or a new heading or phase? I think of it as the southern movement (towards Lyman and Bilohorivka) of the same offensive. Covers part of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. I'd suggest keeping it all together, it's distinct from the Kherson offensive. This map https://deepstatemap.live/en#10/48.7865/38.4858 prob not RS -do we use it? Russian command gone 16th Sept. Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The "Kharkiv Offensive" is an established term in the mainstream media and overall media landscape. This is what counts. The Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place for original research. So there is no issue in including neighbouring theaters like Lyman without renaming the article, if mainstream media do so. And the issue of including future action into this article, too, entirely depends on whether the mainstream media portray it as a continuation of the "Kharkiv offensive" campaign or a new campaign (my best guess is that it will be called a separate "Luhansk Offensive"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:CB:2F0C:858D:59CB:61E2:C7C:D01E (talk) 23:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possible case of flagcruft

Per MOS:FLAG and MOS:FLAGCRUFT, flags and logos should be kept to a useful minimum in Wikipedia articles. To me, the mass usage of individual unit logos in the order of battle section appears to be a clear violation of MOS:FLAGCRUFT, as these logos do not inform readers about anything aside of the fact that the units have their own logos. User RaphaelQS disagrees with this view, though the logic of their argument escapes me. However, I do not want to start an edit war. Thus, I would request other editors to voice their view of the matter.
Is this a case of MOS:FLAGCRUFT or not? Applodion (talk) 15:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, flags should only be used in the belligerent section of an article like this Yavneh (talk) 21:07, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not certain - it's a messy part of the page for sure. But the MOS:FLAG says 'military units' as exception. I find it informative - the list should stay in any case.Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say they're not particularly informative but they don't diminish the quality of the article in any way either. Having specific insignia next to names of military units is different from, say, simply putting their national flags next to every unit, which is the main thing that's discouraged. Lightspecs (talk) 04:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Drobysheve

A report here says that Ukrainian forces have liberated the locality of Drobysheve north-west of Lyman. Is it a reliable source? Ec.Domnowall (talk) 06:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not - but Drobysheve is contested according to most sources at todays date. Thelisteninghand (talk) 00:48, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should we use this source?

https://www.24talker.com/news/feature-news/ukraine-update-counteroffensive-continues-all-roads-to-lyman-now-under-ukrainian-control/

It seems balanced and up to date. It's proving difficult to find reliable current updates in a fast moving situation. I'd like to include information here but I'm uncertain. Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:09, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

End date of 2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive

Some sources already indicated 3 October is the date not only Russian forces withdrew from Kharkiv Oblast east of Oskil River, but also Ukrainian forces have liberated Borova and other settlements. At this moment, of course UAF is doing mop-up operations and liberating other settlements, but they're on the verge of liberating the last part of Kharkiv Oblast not under Ukrainian control. Once it is done, and UAF enters Luhansk Oblast from Kharkiv Oblast and Kharkiv Oblast is safe from any Russian counterattacks, then we can put an end date to this counteroffensive, for it is accomplished, and a possible 2022 Ukrainian Luhansk counteroffensive(or campaign) Wiki entry can be started. Bf0325 (talk) 02:50, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the Ukrainian forces directly continue their push into the Luhansk area after mopping up Kharkiv Oblast, it would make more sense to just rename the offensive to "Kharkiv-Luhansk counteroffensive". Creating a new article would indicate that it would be a new operation which would be an incorrect assessment (at least as of now). Applodion (talk) 09:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 04 October 2022

2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive → 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive – I come to ask once again to rename this article to 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive, even Russian Wikipedia has already made such a renaming. It is very obvious that the counter-offensive has already crossed the borders of Kharkiv Oblast, with currently the Ukrainians already dominating Bilohorivka (Luhansk Oblast) and Lyman (Oblast Donetsk), probably the Ukrainians already control the entire Kharkiv oblast. Ukrainian actions are already recorded in Kreminna, Severodonetsk and Lysychansk, and the Ukrainians have already crossed the Oskil River to advance towards Svatove, all in Luhansk Oblast. The Luhansk, Kharkiv and Donetsk oblasts, where the counter-offensive takes place, are part of the Eastern Ukraine. The Institute for the Study of War also described the Ukrainian operations as an eastern counteroffensive, see here. Some of you would like the counter-offensive to be separated into articles by oblast, but this is ridiculous: How to determine the end of the counter-offensive in Kharkiv and the beginning of the counter-offensive in Luhansk, the Ukrainian actions in the region are obviously part of a same continuous counter-offensive with the actions in each Oblast overlapping each other. Russian offensives are also determined by region and not by oblasts, see Eastern Ukraine offensive and Southern Ukraine campaign. Mawer10 (talk) 10:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: The southern counteroffensive is also named this way. On top of that, advances in Donetsk and Lugansk are also mentioned here. It's more than a Kharkiv counteroffensive at this point. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 12:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: It's clear that with the liberation of Lyman and further Ukrainian advances that this should be renamed. Onegreatjoke (talk) 15:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but suggestion:
For each oblasts we have three sections pertaining to each oblast, and mention how it's important to the part in another oblast. Dawsongfg (talk) 19:21, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which means somebody edited it without a consensus. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:13, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it was wrong for me to do that. I changed the bold text and infobox back to “2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv Oblast counteroffensive”. 68.80.24.8 (talk) 01:33, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Since they liberated lots of Areas in Donetsk oblast, i think its good renaming it Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 16:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Obviously. MarioJump83 (talk) 22:34, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: We should've gotten this done in September, the closed consensus shows support in my opinion, not "no consensus" anyway. This page's move progress has so slow it's making us look as old as russia's equipment... Unburnable (talk) 01:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the eastern counteroffensive and the Ukranian advance continue. --Nicola Romani (talk) 14:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Again! So I will say, again, that the huge number of articles on this war need a central index. Searching them is not easy as they mostly start '2022' so entering 'Russian' or 'Ukrainian' doesn't work. Do we name articles with reader searches in mind? But yes 'Eastern' for this page - the other is 'Southern' so precedent set. Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:02, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support due to the extended nature of the campaign in recent days. Kakurokuna (talk) 21:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Super Ψ Dro 13:35, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This title makes more sense. The article describes advances in Donetsk and Luhansk, not just in Kharkiv. Physeters✉ 05:07, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. More than a logical proposal, having in mind the 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive article. —Sundostund (talk) 11:30, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Its not just about the counteroffensive in Kharkiv, its also about the advance Donetsk, Lugansk, among others. MMJ TheIndianWikiFreak (talk) 14:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose—running counter to strong support above, I'd oppose simply 'cause long-term, Wikipedia is gonna have a very good article on the rather remarkable events and significant theatre battle that was the massive/quick retaking of most of Kharkiv Oblast (currently named, 2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive)—including north of Kharkiv city to the border with Russia—in just a week or so of early September. Wikipedia will also have an article on the much broader, and longer, northern counteroffensive that will include explication of the events in Kharkiv Oblast and then move as the military engagements have due east to northern Lugansk Oblast, and has already bled into northern Donetsk Oblast; that is the 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive. I see no reason that the latter article can not just be created right now, to cover the larger 6+ weeks to several months of events, and in that article, the more Kharkiv-specific bits of early September will be summarized more briefly, with a main pointer to the Kharkiv counteroffensive article for the deeper treatment and details. There is simply no need to artificially shoehorn the material and keep the two together now, with a name-change controversy, when both articles will exist long term. There are simply too many events and too much notable coverage to be otherwise. Cheers. N2e (talk) 01:37, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
N2e, I guess we could split it in a new requested move (RM) in the future, either when the war is over, or when a ceasefire is held, whichever comes first. For now, since the offensive is still ongoing, a lot of information on the offensive outside of Kharkiv would likely be added. Cheers, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 01:30, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: You are right, in the future the articles about this war will be reformulated based on academic sources and more other information released after the end of the conflict. But we cannot just sit back and passively wait for the future to arrive. The change in the title of the article is necessary at this point, mainly because the article itself already contains information beyond the Kharkiv Oblast. The new title may not last forever, a change may be necessary in the future, but until that future arrives... Mawer10 (talk) 19:08, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • support situation changed.
    Panam2014 (talk) 13:11, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ukrainian troops now entering Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, heading near Lysychansk. Sarrail (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Fredericus 2.0" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Fredericus 2.0 and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 5#Fredericus 2.0 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 16:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

recapture or liberate?

As far as Wikipedia tells me, Lyman had only changed hands twice since the beginning of the war: (1) being taken by Russia on May 27, and (2) being taken back by Ukraine on October 1. Saying in the infobox that "Ukraine recaptures Lyman" implies that they had captured it from Russia previously. If this is the first Ukrainian liberation of the city, then I think "Ukraine liberates Lyman" would make more sense 675930s (talk) 18:24, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Personally my opinion is always top use 'liberate' because you don't 'capture' what is already yours. Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:08, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is not what recapture means. Check a dictionary. That said, I think liberate is good. —Michael Z. 03:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Recapture should be used as synonym in case Russians occupy the city again. If we need a synonym for liberated or (liberated again) we can use retake (retook, retaken). --Nicola Romani (talk) 06:18, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, this is Ukraine's first time capturing the city, so it can't be a recapture. 675930s (talk) 08:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Liberation is an appropriate term to use when a country regains control of it's sovereign territory form a foreign power, see the following examples - Liberation of France, Liberation of Paris, Liberation of the German-occupied Channel Islands, Liberation of Arnhem, Liberation of Belgium, Liberation of Kuwait, Liberation of Bangladesh etc. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 11:28, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it's 'ongoing' how can it have an 'aftermath'

Not being pedantic, I am uncertain whether I should be updating this article - the offensive in that direction is ongoing (yes beyond Kharkiv..) there is news. This seems to be the right place but the article has a concluded tone with the aftermath heading. I've proposed this question before - where/when do we stop? Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:18, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, around 12-15 September we were already arguing to name this page 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive following precedent from 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive, but a bunch of editors argued this article should only refer to the Kharkiv 6-12 Sept counteroffensive. They managed to form a consensus that the offensive was over because no major news was coming out of Ukraine at the levels it was the week before, so they classified the current event as done and over. Instead of making a new article for the next phase of the counter, editors sensibly started adding the post Sept. 13 gains to this one following precedent for the southern counteroffensive, causing the current move discussion. So the "aftermath" is probably a result of the first consensus that never was amended or removed. Unburnable (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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