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May 16

Ashtamangala

I'm trying to find the traditional Chinese and Japanese names (possibly with hanzi and kanji) of the eight Buddhist symbols of Ashtamangala. I guess thay could be added to our article as well. Thank you! --87.20.54.149 (talk) 09:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Latin precious stones

wikt:Category:Latin terms with uncertain meaning has a bunch of "unknown precious stones." Where'd we find these words? One old book about gems? Temerarius (talk) 20:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked for the sources for the words in that category specifically, but for Latin words denoting gemstones book 37 of Pliny's Natural History and book 16 of Isidore's Etymologiae are the best sources I can think of. I'm fairly sure that not all the stones named in those two works are identifiable with confidence in modern terms. Deor (talk) 20:37, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add that many, if not all, of the gemstone entries in that Wiktionary category give Lewis and Short's dictionary as a reference. If you want to know where in ancient works a particular word occurs, you can simply click on the appropriate link in the "References" section of the Wiktionary page, and the L&S entry will cite where the word is attested. Deor (talk) 21:55, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Off the top of my head, the Vulgate (Jerome's Latin translation of the Hebrew/Greek bible) has many gem names, particularly in the Book of Revelation.--Verbarson (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 17

What does tetracosa- mean??

Using the rules in Wikipedia's List of polygons article, tetracosa- means 400. But Wiktionary disagrees; it says it means 24. (I thought 24 was icosatetra- or icosakaitetra-.) Which is right, Wikipedia's list of polygons or Wiktionary?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary also says that tetracosa- comes from Ancient Greek τετράκοσι (tetrákosi), but no such Ancient Greek word exists. There is a word τετρακόσιοι (tetrakósioi), which does mean "four hundred". The prefix given in the List of polygons is tetracosi-. I don't know if it is attested, but the Ancient Greek word I'd expect for 24 is τετρακαίεικοσι (tetrakaíeikosi); LSJ lists τετρακαιεικοστός (tetrakaieikostós), meaning "twenty-fourth". --Lambiam 11:31, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A 24-faced polyhedron appears to be called an icositetrahedron. --Lambiam 12:07, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

LSJ lists εἰκοσιτέσσαρες (eikositéssares) as meaning "twenty-four". --Lambiam 12:49, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

English question from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (film)

Hermoine upsets over Ron kissing Lav:

Hermoine: Was I under the impression he and I would be attending Slughorn's Christmas party? Yes. Now, given the circumstances, I've had to make other arrangements.
Harry: Have you?
Hermoine: Yes. Why?

What does "why" refer to? Rizosome (talk) 06:49, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's a short way of saying, "Why do you ask?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:19, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And this curt reply suggests that Hermione thinks it is none of Harry's business, discouraging him from further probing unless he can present a legitimate reason for his interest. By the way, Hermione (note the spelling) is pronounced with four syllables with the stress on the second syllable, like her-MY-a-knee. --Lambiam 11:54, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"You put it out wrong"

There is a Finnish anecdote where someone calls the fire brigade when there is a fire in their house. The fire brigade takes too long to arrive, during which time the caller puts out the fire themselves. When the fire brigade finally arrives, the caller says there is no emergency any more, as they put the fire out themselves. The fire brigade replies "Well, you put it out wrong". The idea is that the fire brigade is annoyed at having been called in vain, and is searching for something to complain about. Does a similar anecdote exist in English? JIP | Talk 16:36, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This may be an instance of inimitable Finnish humour. It is vaguely reminiscent of a joke told by Werner Herzog in his book Conquest of the Useless: In a Viennese café a man orders a coffee without cream. They were out of cream, the waiter says; would it be all right to have a coffee without milk? I first heard this many years ago, but Herzog also gives a variant that was new to me: In Communist East Germany a man goes into a department store and asks for a refrigerator. He had come to the wrong place, he is told; the store across the way had no refrigerators; over here there was no furniture. Which reminds me of the propagandist explaining to his audience: Under capitalism, man oppresses man. Under socialism, it's the other way around. (This joke is variously attributed to John Maynard Keynes or John Kenneth Galbraith, but not found on Wikiquote so I guess these are false attributions.) Which in turn reminds me of Bush 43 proclaiming, really, Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.^[1] --Lambiam 21:19, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A classic type of joke, though I don't know what it's called, if anything. A store is selling some product at 5 dollars each. The customer complains that across the street it's 4 dollars each. "So why don't you buy from across the street?" "They're out of them!" "Hey, if I was out of them, I'd offer them at 3 dollars each!" Closer to the coffee joke, Groucho Marx pulls out a cigar and says, "Do you mind if I don't smoke?" and puts the cigar back in his pocket. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My favorite Communism joke. A certain shop is rumored to have meat to sell, and by sunrise there is a long line of customers. The shop door opens a crack and a face appears and says, "We don't have enough meat for everyone, so will any Jews please leave." The queue thins out a bit. Time passes. The face reappears: "There are still too many of you. We only have enough meat for members of the Communist Party." Many more leave. More time passes. "We only have enough meat for veterans of the Great Patriotic War." More customers go. More time passes. "Only enough for veterans of the October Revolution." As the sun sets, the shopkeeper confesses that there is no meat at all. One of the two remaining old Bolsheviks mutters to the other, "The Jews always get the best of everything." —Tamfang (talk) 05:00, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In Finland, "Well, you put it out wrong" is used as an expression to express sentiment that someone wants to complain for the sake of complaining, when they don't have a real reason. This is based on the anecdote above. Does English have such an expression? JIP | Talk 22:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not quite sour grapes but that lead me to cognitive dissonance which might apply. 41.165.67.114 (talk) 06:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JIP -- there's a Yiddish expression א חסרון די כלה איז צו שיין insinuating that some people would complain at a wedding because the bride is too beautiful... AnonMoos (talk) 06:39, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That seems indeed to convey the same message as "you put it out wrong". The Yiddish expression (transliterated, with an extra word thrown in where others have a colon: a khisorn az di kale iz tsu sheyn) is discussed here. Do people shorten this to just the last part (די כלה איז צו שיין)? --Lambiam 08:25, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to remember famous case study

I read long ago about a case of a mentally handicapped woman who had perfectly normal grammar and appropriate vocabulary (albeit restricted). This case was mostly used to demonstrate language modularity. It is not Genie, nor any other (half)feral child, which seem to always have very limited linguistic abilities. If I remember correctly she was the daughter of a researcher. --Bumptump (talk) 17:49, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the condition of the woman was Williams syndrome; the verbal skills of affected individuals are generally relatively unaffected. For the rest, there is little to go on to narrow the search; many case studies of people with this syndrome have been published. --Lambiam 22:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Two cases are discussed near the end of Chapter 2 of The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker: "Denyse" (spina bifida) and "Crystal" (Williams syndrome). AnonMoos (talk) 08:57, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also Oliver Sacks discusses a Williams syndrome case in Musicophilia. --T*U (talk) 12:53, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 18

Ej vs. inte

I have always wondered what is the difference between the words ej and inte in Swedish. They both mean the same thing, "not". But ej is much more common in actual Swedish and inte is much more common in Finland-Swedish. Are they interchangeable, or do they have some sort of grammatical difference? JIP | Talk 21:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Ej is usually only found in the written language: ej genomfart, no thoroughfare" Holmes, Philip; Hinchliffe, Ian (1998). Swedish: A Comprehensive Grammar. Routledge. p. 341. DuncanHill (talk) 21:37, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also this thread from the archives. DuncanHill (talk) 21:39, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Asked by the same questioner, I see. --Viennese Waltz 09:02, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Eight years ago. JIP | Talk 11:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You don't remember asking the same question eight years ago? I'm surprised. --Viennese Waltz 11:55, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned in the linked discussion, ej (and also icke) is more formal and/or old-fashioned. In a poem from 1782, I found this line: "jag minns icke hvar (och vet ej hennes namn)", meaning "I don't remember where (and don't know her name)". --T*U (talk) 13:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I made a search in two different Swedish Bible versions and came up with rather significant differences: In the 1917 translation, "icke" is used 3642 times, "ej" 236 times, "inte" 0 times. In the 2000 translation, "icke" is used 11 times and "ej" 16 times (both mostly poetic), while "inte" is used 2607 times. --T*U (talk) 13:48, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but I feel sure I've read somewhere that until the late 19th Century "icke" was the only negative. Holmes & Hinchliffe mention that it's nowadays often used for English loan-translations, such as icke-rökare 'non-smoker'. DuncanHill (talk) 13:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can see that "icke" was the only form used in the Bible translation from 1686, but "ej" must have come in as a more informal form at least in the 18th century, as in the 1782 poem I quoted above. A much-used formula would be the pair "icke" ... "ej heller" (meaning neither...nor). --T*U (talk) 14:20, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Swedish Wiktionary, ej was spelled ei in Old Swedish, and before that eighi. Since it is unlikely to have died out and then have come to life again, it should be possible to find uses in earlier texts. --Lambiam 22:03, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 19

May Day terms without the connotation to Labour Day

In multiple languages, I am composing a list of terms and names that refer to May Day exclusively in the meaning of the pagan celebration that heralds the coming of the summer season, or any equivalent springtime cultural festivities, without any sense, connotation, or adopted meaning towards International Workers Day, Labour Day, or anything to do with social justice, "progressiveness", or political matters that seems to pervasively bleed into anything these days. I'd like to avoid or otherwise note if a term is more-or-less synonymous with Walpurgisnacht, because I generally recognise May Day and Walpurgisnacht as two separate events.

For example, many German terms such as Erster Mai and Maifeiertag have mostly kept their connection to the meaning of the pagan summer celebration until the last couple decades, where that meaning had since been degraded and overwhelmingly replaced with Labour Day by the millennial generation.

The list I've compiled so far:

Maitag (German; same problem as Erster Mai and Maifeiertag)
Tanz in den Mai (German; more of a phrase "Dance into the May" than a term)
Hexennacht (German "Witches night"; another term for Walpurgisnacht)
Heksennacht (Dutch "Witches night"; another term for Walpurgisnacht)
Meierblis (Dutch "May blaze")
Valborgsmässoafton (Swedish name for Walpurgisnacht; May Day festivities have apparently all moved to the last day of April to make room for Labour Day)
Valpurgijos naktis (Lithuanian name for Walpurgisnacht)
Flōrālia, Maiouma, Kalendae Maiae (Latin; Floralia and Maiouma celebrated different deities but took place at around the same time)
Calende di maggio (Italian)
Albero della Cuccagna (Sicily; commemorates a battle but supposedly predates said battle)
Os Maios/Dia de Maio (Portuguese and Galican; to differentiate from Dia do Trabalhador)
Los Mayos/Festividad de los Mayos (Spanish)
Πρωτομαγιά (Protomagiá, Greek; to my understanding the meaning and customs have since been lost due to Christianity and urbanisation)
Pálení čarodějnic (Czech "Witches' burning"; is considered an occasion of romance)
Arminden (Romanian)
Jeremiinŭ dĭnĭ (Slavic "Jeremiah's day")
Vappu/Vappen (Finnish)
Kevadpüha, Volbriöö (Estonian)
Bealtaine/Bealltainn (Irish and Scottish Gaelic)
Cétshamhain (Celtic and Gaelic)
Calan Haf/Calan Mai (Welsh)

I would appreciate any help or suggestions to add to my list. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 13:31, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment about Swedish Valborgsmässoafton: The saint's day is 1 May, but traditionally the liturgical day starts at sunset, so the feast day starts with vesper (evensong) in the evening (cf. also Christmas Eve). Evening is also the natural time for lighting fires, which was probably a Pre-Christian tradition that was adopted and connected to the feast day. The celebration has thus not been moved from 1 May, but has always been in the Eve. --T*U (talk) 14:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is that, at least in some countries (particularly the Nordic countries), the festivities around 1 May are really an amalgamation of two completely different things: A pre-Christian pagan festival of warding off evil spirits (Walpurgis Night) and a contemporary demonstration of workers' rights (May Day). Because the two events are on consecutive days (if not even on the same day), they get muddled up in people's minds, as in practice they fuse into one big celebration. JIP | Talk 16:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not at all sure that is right. The background, history and also the character of the two events are so different that most people will be well aware of the differences. Also, the relative importance of the two will vary considerably with factors like geography, degree of urbanisation, education and social standing. Furthermore, in the Nordic countries the celebration of Walpurgis Eve is almost entirely restricted to Sweden and Finland. In Denmark, Norway and Iceland Valborg is not important at all. In Denmark and Norway the bonfire night is at St John, also in the Eve (23 June). --T*U (talk) 18:07, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The notion of the beginning of May being a way to honor workers came about as a commemoration of the Haymarket affair. Ironically, though the event happened in Chicago, the U.S. chose to itself make its commemoration in early September rather than early May. There are a lot of historical and philosophical reasons why the U.S. government did this that are outside of the scope of this discussion, but the reason why worker's rights are celebrated in early May has to do with the Haymarket riots, and not because of any connection to the spring festival. --Jayron 32 16:41, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know the reason workers' rights are celebrated in early May is not related to the spring festival. That was the point of my comment. However, there are quite many people in Finland who think "Vappu" and "May Day" mean the same thing just because they are celebrated together, when in reality "Vappu" is an ancient pagan spring festival. If May Day was all there was to the celebrations we'd all be marching on Aleksanterinkatu chanting slogans instead of dressing up in silly costumes, throwing around colourful decorations and boozing our brains out. JIP | Talk 17:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that this is an odd way of putting it, given that the name "May Day" is the traditional name for the first of May and predates the political observances by centuries. Maybe look for a different name for the political observance? --Trovatore (talk) 17:34, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@JIP: on a similar note, it's also odd that you refer to Walpurgis Night / Vappu as a "pre-Christian" celebration, given that it's named after a Christian saint. No doubt it co-opted elements of earlier pagan observances, much as Christmas co-opted Yule and so on and so on, but that is not exactly the same thing. In any case, as Jayron says, the term "May Day" in English almost always means a simple celebration of spring, with no particular religious, supernatural, or political significance. "Now is the month of Maying, when merry lads are playing!" --Trovatore (talk) 21:01, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My reply was a bit confusing. I meant that the celebration itself has roots in pre-Christian paganism, not that the term "Walpurgis Night" has. Here in Finland, Vappu / Walpurgis night has hardly any connections to paganism and even less to the Christian saint left. Very few people in Finland even know who Walpurgis was. Nowadays the entire two-day event, lasting from the evening of April 30 (it's a normal working day unless it falls on the weekend) to the afternoon/evening on May 1 is just one big celebration, wilder on April 30 and quieter and more traditional on May 1. JIP | Talk 21:06, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)The deal is that, in English, the term "May Day" predates the labor movement. This is clearly noted at May Day. In the U.S., U.K., and other English speaking countries, International Worker's Day is not officially celebrated, nor is it known as "May Day", which almost universally refers to the spring festival. The UK has a bank holiday on May 1, but I don't know of or have any reason to believe this was to commemorate the Labour movement in any way. Insofar as it is known as "May Day", it is only explicitly in the context of socialist or communist organisations in such places where "May Day" has such connotations. There's an awareness of it, but it is not the commonly understood meaning of the term. --Jayron 32 17:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Early May Bank Holiday in the UK (which is on the first Monday in May, not May Day itself) was introduced in 1978 by the Labour government of James Callaghan. Everybody knew it was about Labour Day, but ministers took great care not to admit it, as this exchange in the Lords illustrates:

Viscount Davidson (Conservative): "Would he not agree that, since 1st May is Labour Day, it is possibly not the right day for a public holiday, and to the general public it seems that this Government have tried to impose their political ideology in this manner, which is not a good thing?"

Lord Wallace of Coslany (Labour): "My Lords, with due respect to the noble Viscount, that is really going too far. In point of fact, many countries have celebrated May Day for some considerable time. The United States, which I understand is not Communist, of course instituted Labour Day many years ago. In addition the Christian Church, above all people, have for many centuries celebrated the 1st May as the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker; so we are in very respectable company". [2] Alansplodge (talk) 22:38, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I second the notion that the term "May Day" predates the workers' rights protests only in the English-speaking world. Here in the Nordic countries, the April-to-May switch celebrations used to be, and still are, only named after Saint Walpurgis. No one ever refers to them as "May something" or "Labour something". They used to be first a pagan, and then a Christian, tradition until the workers' rights movement came along. JIP | Talk 02:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, that may be. I have to say I was not previously aware of that, if so. I'm curious, when you talk about "May Day" in the non-English-speaking world, do you mean the literal English words "May Day", or is it some sort of translation or calque into the relevant language?

In any case, "May Day" has a very different resonance in English from "Walpurgis Night", which I mainly have heard of from in relation to Night on Bald Mountain, with a dark, foreboding air. Our article about Walpurgis Night mentions seeking protection against rabies, pest (plague), whooping cough, and witches.

"May Day" couldn't be more different. It's about pure (or impure, depending on your viewpoint) youthful bawdy joy. There's not a whiff of disease, witches — or politics. --Trovatore (talk) 07:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the term "May Day" for the Workers' Day celebration may just be based on a miscomprehension by non-native English users like me. Looking at the interlingua-links from the page May Day, we find articles about pre-Workers' Day concepts like de:Brauchtum im Mai, es:Festividad de los Mayos, it:Calendimaggio, el:Πρωτομαγιά. The article International Workers' Day, on the other hand, links to articles like de:Erster Mai, nn:Første mai and el:Εργατική Πρωτομαγιά (Workers' 1 May). One of the countries where these two celebrations would be likely to get muddled together, would be Sweden, where both celebrations are very much alive. However, I cannot think that any of my many Swedish friends would ever wave a red flag on the evening of Valborg or would ever light a bonfire (or sing patriotic songs) on 1 May, even if many of them would partake in both celebrations. --T*U (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as a name "May Day" in Finnish or Swedish. As I said above, no one ever calls the celebrations "May something" or "Labour something". Both celebrations, the pagan-and-Christian festival and the workers' rights protest, are named after Saint Walpurgis. The difference is that April 30 is called "Vappuaatto" (Walpurgis Eve) and May 1 is called "Vappu" or "Vapunpäivä" (Walpurgis Day). We Finns know what we call Vappu and celebrate on May 1 is based on a workers' rights protest but usually, the tradition on May 1 is just to go on a picnic, drinking sima and sparkling wine and eating food and snacks. JIP | Talk 09:27, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May Day celebrations (in the "spring festival" sense) center around the maypole. They go back centuries. --Jayron 32 11:26, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

True, but in Sweden the maypole ('majstång') is raised at the midsummer festival around 21 June, and it is more usually called a midsummer pole ('midsommarstång'). According to the current 'semi-official' Swedish ethymology, the 'maj-' part of the word 'majstång' is not directly derived from the name of the month, but comes from the verb 'att maja', which could be translated as 'to decorate with greenery' (which in turn would obviously come from the name of the month). But in most parts of Sweden, it would be difficult to decorate with green leaves in the beginning of May. So in Sweden, the maypole of May Day has been moved to midsummer, and in Denmark and Norway, the bonfires of Valborg have been moved to midsummer (or St John). In both cases, much more suited to the Scandinavian climate. The wonderful flexibility of human customs! --T*U (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Point of order: Meierblis (Dutch "May blaze") is incorrect. I checked on this as I (who grew up in the Netherlands) did not recognise it. As the Dutch article states, is is a word in the dialect of the island of Texel, which is a variant of West-Frisian. This is a completely separate language from Dutch. Fgf10 (talk) 16:58, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You're confusing the West Frisian language, the westernmost of the Frisian languages, spoken in the province of Friesland, with West Frisian Dutch, a dialect grouping from the West Friesland region of North Holland province. The Texel dialect Tessels is a rather divergent variant of the latter. 110.174.110.213 (talk) 05:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

72.234.12.37 -- The third item from the bottom of your list is usually spelled Beltane in English (though only a minority of people would be familiar with it). AnonMoos (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for the Greek πρωτομαγιά, the only remaining custom of the spring celebration seems to be the making of flower wreaths (or the urban version: buying them from a flower shop) to decorate the entrance door of your house, a balcony or even the front of your car. I suspect urbanisation has more to do with the decline than Christianity. In general, Christianity did not really remove most of the pagan customs. Many of them were just reinterpreted and adjusted to fit in. --T*U (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A further reply: Vappu / Vappen (Finnish): You have to take into account Finland is a bilingual country, where 94% of the people speak Finnish and 6% speak Swedish. "Vappu" is Finnish and "Vappen" is Finland-Swedish, which is a variety of Swedish and has little-to-none to do with Finnish. I think you meant "Finland" more than "Finnish". Although the Finnish and Swedish cultures are closely related, the languages are very different. Finnish is not even an Indo-European language. There are precious few non-Indo-European languages in Europe. Some other examples are Estonian, Hungarian, Sámi and Basque. JIP | Talk 02:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another one for your list: "The month of May (Latin Maius) was supposedly named for Maia" and "On the first day of May, the Lares Praestites were honored as protectors of the city." From Maia#Roman_Maia 41.165.67.114 (talk) 06:41, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In France before the advent of Labour Day, 1 May was La Fete du Muguet. The tradition (still practiced) of presenting a sprig or a whole plant of lilly of the valley to female friends and relatives, is said to have originated on 1 May 1561, when a lily flower was given to King Charles IX of France. [3] Alansplodge (talk) 10:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish Wikipedia has es:Maya_(folclore_de_España) (associated to enwiki May Queen), es:Festividad de los Mayos, es:Fiesta del Mayo Manchego, es:Fiesta de la Maya (Colmenar Viejo), es:Las Mayas.

There is also the Fiesta de las Cruces two days later. Some see the crosses as a Christianization of the maypole.

--Error (talk) 01:22, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 20

"May Day" as a help call

Related to the previous question about "May Day", is it so that "May Day" is used as a help call because it sounds similar to "M'aidez" (literally "Help me" in French), or is there another etymology? JIP | Talk 02:21, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OED says:

Origin: A borrowing from French. Etymons: French m'aidez, m'aider.

Etymology: < French m'aidez or m'aider ‘help me!’ (the latter being either the imperative infinitive or short for venez m'aider ‘come and help me!’; < me , first person direct object pronoun + aider)

DuncanHill (talk) 02:34, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And gives the first citation "1923 Times 2 Feb. 7/4 Owing to the difficulty of distinguishing the letter ‘S’ by telephone, the international distress signal ‘S.O.S.’ will give place to the words ‘May-day’, the phonetic equivalent of ‘M'aidez’, the French for ‘Help me’". DuncanHill (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! JIP | Talk 02:37, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

From what I understand, "M'aidez" or "M'aider" can occur in French as part of a longer sentence, but neither one commonly occurs as a stand-alone short sentence meaning "Help me!" (in that usage, "Aidez-moi!" would be more likely). AnonMoos (talk) 06:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is easy to find early sources (like the 1923 Times article) that explain mayday as the French pronunciation of the expression m'aider. I did not see comparably early sources explaining the choice of the call m'aider as a shortening of venez m'aider. The earliest I spotted was in a 1980 book.^[4] --Lambiam 08:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Checking Newspapers.com (pay site, not comprehensive), that explanation about "M'aidez" first turns up in February of 1923 in The Guardian in London, and is quickly picked up in many newspapers in America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But what about venez m'aider with an ⟨r⟩? While the combination m'aidez does occur in French, it cannot be a stand-alone phrase and does not mean a plea of "help me". --Lambiam 23:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why EO does not guarantee that's the true origin.[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:01, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But my question is, specifically, what is the origin of the repeated claim that a word VENEZ was omitted? This word is not mentioned in the 1923 sources. Did the OED fabricate this explanation? It is just one of many things that could be put in front of m'aider; for example, j'apprécierais vraiment si vous pouviez m'aider – although this might not evoke quite the same sense of urgency. --Lambiam 01:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I never heard the venez m'aider explanation, so I can't answer that literal question. But the whole discussion seems a little overwrought to me. Apparently this Mockford fellow had to come up with a word, and he came up with one. Maybe he was a B− French student, or whatever the equivalent of B− is in the English system. Or maybe he understood just fine that it wasn't good French, but that wasn't his most important consideration at the moment. --Trovatore (talk) 02:09, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems some people would rather die than use poor French. DuncanHill (talk) 02:17, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We (of course) have an article: Mayday. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:50, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An article about Frederick Stanley Mockford. DuncanHill (talk) 23:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 22

Quarterdeck

Many terms related to sailors' ships have surprisingly silent letters, but "quarterdeck" is an exception; it's pronounced the way it is spelled and not "quaddick". Any reason here?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:26, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure it's "the reason", but quarterdeck dates from the 17th century ([6]), while the ones with different pronunciation I could think of (forecastle, boatswain, coxswain, mainsail, and windward) all can be traced to over a century earlier, according to etymonline. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:53, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wild speculation: perhaps it's because the quarterdeck is more markedly the domain of (usually upper class) officers who would frown on slovenly pronunciation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195) 90.197.27.217 (talk) 09:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Poop deck is another exception. Alansplodge (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

May 23

Comma between clauses

Could anybody with a good grasp of punctuation please advise on a couple of cases?

I've made an edit inserting a comma into "If 1 + 2 + 3 + ⋯ = x, then adding 0 to both sides gives...", which has been almost instantly reverted with a comment that it "needlessly breaks flow". Am I really so wrong in this case?
In another edit, I've inserted a comma between two independent clauses, both of which depend on another clause, like this: "..., where A is something of B, and C is ...", judging that without this comma, it is first incorrectly perceived as "A is something of B and C". This was also reverted with a claim "you are simply wrong". Is the comma really out of place in this case?

— Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I agree with your commas 100%. I would have made those same edits, and would have contested those reversions by reverting them myself. If the first reverter persisted, I'd have gone to the talk page and explained my reasoning. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:46, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]