Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles

Saleen and Tata Harrier

Good morning, I would like to point out that I have corrected the Saleen and Saleen S1 entry by adding the sources and the acquisition of the company by the Chinese Jiangsu Secco Tecnology, if someone can correct any errors in the notes and grammar. And Saleen is a public company? Many source cite is a private and chinese!

also in Tata Harrier there are many Indian news sites and articles and I would like to know if they are suitable for an encyclopedia, many seem superfluous (for example the many competing cars that I eliminated). thanks and good job

sorry but in Tata Motors there is the "Notable Vehicle" section which seems useless and repetitive as already mentioned in the entry and the specific entries are already present.

Mazda MX-30

Talkpage discussion on the Mazda MX-30. Please see talkpage discussion when you have the time, thanks. [1] --Vauxford (talk) 10:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC) Just a thought. If you drive on the same side of the road as those around you you'll have fewer head-on collisions. Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 10:59, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Could you guys give us a clue what the discussion is about instead of making us go there ourselves and only then find out it's something we necessarily don't care about. In this case it's yet another image discussion.  Stepho  talk  22:27, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Stepho-wrs Basically some person from the German Wikipedia disputed a photograph I taken of a Mazda MX-30 over his because I thought it was an improvement. Sorry for the barrage of talkpage discussions but I much rather not have another topic ban on my back. --Vauxford (talk) 01:27, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Then I recommend that you stop trying to replace perfectly good pictures. Look, unless your picture is undisputably an improvement over what is already there, leave things alone. If you take a photo that has a better angle but more shadows, leave it be. It is never worth anyone's time to argue between two perfectly servicable images.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Constant usage of industry jargon

A large number of car related articles on Wikipedia are written in a manner which is not really appropriate for a general encyclopaedia. A car may most commonly be referred to as a "multi purpose vehicle" in sources, but that isn't a good guide as to how to describe it if all of those sources are written by and for people involved or interested in the motor industry. Most people don't know what a "multi purpose vehicle" is; it's far more helpful to say it's "a seven-seater car" or something which is actually descriptive in WP:PLAINENGLISH. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 23:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

If a term is unclear, it should be wikilinked. Multi purpose vehicle is not particularly obscure jargon, rather it's a regionalism. It also does not translate directly to seven-seater car, which is why the link is there - the correct definition is much too long to use comfortably in the article. I agree that we all ought to avoid using jargon when possible, but writing swage line or F-head (with Wikilinks) is the most respectful way I can think of to communicate such information.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:35, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The phrase "multi purpose vehicle" is self-explanatory, even for people who never heard it before. It is also hard to replace. You're proposing to change it to "a seven-seater car", but not all MPVs are seven-seater, could have been somewhere between 5-12, could be two, three, or four rows. Seven-seater cars might not be an MPV, it could have been an SUV, for example. There are many other jargons that needs to be avoided, but in my opinion, "multi purpose vehicle" is not one of them. Andra Febrian (talk) 07:44, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Industry jargon changes from country to country, from year to year and, even more starkly, from decade to decade, generation to generation, century to century. And sources come from many ages and places. That's not just the case with the "auto industry" (urgh ... and ... sorry!). It's the case with the way we use our own - and other folks' - languages across the piece. When I hear the kids on the telephone or see their messages, there are some very odd usages. And you should see what they say about me. If "mpv" get your goat, then feel free to go through the articles using it with insufficient context-based clarity as to intended meaning, and link it here or here or here. (Or use a better link if, applying reasonable case by case insights, you are on an entry for which some "better link" would be more appropriate. There may indeed be cases where "seven-seater car" fits the bill better, but not as a "one size fits all RULE" every time you hit on an mpv.) And thank you, especially in the name of the people you will help with this slightly tedious but nonetheless helpful task, and especially for non-native speakers of English who haven't had so much exposure to different versions of English as mother tongue speakers such as - and here I speculate - you. But if your point is simply that we all use different versions of English differently, then .... um ... yes. Thus wikipedia. Thus language. But presumably you spotted that already.

On the other hand, I do not agree that "multi purpose vehicle" is self-explanatory. Which range of purposes is one intented to infer? I have a pretty multi-purpose bicycle. But it still doesn't take a passenger or a crate full of groceries ....

Be well. Charles01 (talk) 08:13, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

One must also not confuse industry jargon with terms used in a more scientific context. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that does not only describe things everybody already knows about. If, for instance, a transverse control arm (an important part of a vehicle's suspension system) is called a "Panhard rod", then we can use this term and describe it in its own article. Paraphrasing this would unnecessarily blow up articles. The same is true for "Multi-purpose vehicle": It literally means that a vehicle has multiple purposes – we don't necessarily have to describe all of these purposes; imagine I would describe what one could use an Unimog 416 (a multi-purpose vehicle) for; it would fill an entire section in that vehicle's (currently nonexisting) article. There's so many options: Tram tractor, motorhome, fire engine… Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 12:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

There are, however, obscure marketing buzzwords which I suggest everyone to avoid in order to keep the text encyclopaedic. One of them is facelift. --Gwafton (talk) 13:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

As with many auto-industry segments, there are no rules that guide how a vehicle should be classified; the designations are but one step removed from completely arbitrary. I once tried to define a sport utility vehicle (SUV) and a crossover utility vehicle (CUV) using objective criteria such as size, shared platform (car vs pickup), chassis type (unibody vs body-on-frame), drivetrain layout (longitudinal vs transverse), drivetrain variants (RWD based vs FWD based, part time 4wd vs full time 4wd, available low-range) etc. and found that no single rule could be used to classify something as one or the other. The industry has similarly decided that MPVs are vehicles that generally have certain characteristics and might otherwise fit into multiple segments. For example, the same MPVs may be sold in various configurations with 7 seats, 5 seats, or only 2 seats for use as a trade-van. While the name MPV, on its face, is not particularly helpful, it's equally unhelpful to group and describe vehicles based on only the number of seats that may or may not have been equipped on any particular variant. IPBilly (talk) 13:56, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I can see the issue the OP has. I'm honestly not thrilled with the use of the term "car" when we often mean "light passenger vehicle" or simply automobile. A good practice might be to always define the term (ideally with a hyperlink if an article exists) the first time it's used in an article. While I suspect most readers are familiar with an "SUV" and in North America the minivan, terms like "crossover", "MPV", "CUV" etc are likely less familiar to many readers. Would it be helpful to have an automotive terms article so we could always link "MPV" to a standard definition (in cases where a primary article doesn't exist)? Springee (talk) 14:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Talbot Tagora Featured article review

I have nominated Talbot Tagora for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

B-segment

I'm proposing for my edits in the B-segment article to be restored. I started a discussion at Talk:B-segment#Article improvement proposal. Any opinions and suggestions are welcome. Thanks. Andra Febrian (talk) 02:39, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Dongfeng Fengdu MX5 in Aeolus AX7

The Dongfeng Fengdu MX5 and first generation of Aeolus AX7 are same car! The Fengdu have only a different front and rear bumper but the car are the same and was produced only for 1 year! No other difference

OBD Lists - Add them to each make/model, or start an OBD project?

As motor vehicles move increasingly to digital management, maintaining them requires a new set of references called DTC Codes (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) that are read by an On Board Diagnostic (OBD) computer that stores the fault codes. Some serious faults are signalled with a dash board light or a message telling the driver to take the car to their mechanic, and in severe cases, the system places the car in "limp mode" where it barely can be driven to prevent catastrophic damage.

Each manufacturer issues a list of diagnostic codes with explanations about what each means and what its probable cause is. Over time, as the car gets older (typically after 10 years), the dealers drop off the older lists. The manufacturers place the lists in the public domain where they can be found in various repositories on the Internet. However, private sector hosts come and go, and there is a need for a permanent repository of encyclopedic capacity available to anyone seeking a quick reference.

The list can be added to the particular make and model, or, perhaps Wikipedia would decide to establish a whole section dedicated to DTC codes. It is likely that both manufacturers and car forums would then populate the list with their particular cars.

The other benefit of this is to allow "aging probable-causes". The DTC list developed when the vehicle was new will not be comprehensive. Over time, new causes will pop up - for example, a poorly-designed fuse box allows moisture to get in each time the car dealer pressure washes the engine, but the corrosion caused by the moisture may take months before the fuse box starts throwing off error codes - long after the used-car dealer sold the vehicle. The codes will refer to the components that are fused, not the link in the middle (the fusebox), and the mechanic may spend a week before they find the problem (that was unlisted on the original DTC list) - in this case, that the fuse box had corrosion, thus the OBD received bad data. If that mechanic then publishes that finding, the next person with the same DTC code will know to check the fuse box in the first ten minutes.

Tangential question. How does the finding become encyclopedic? My suggestion is that the mechanic be allowed to enter findings directly on the Wikipedia page in a special column called "aging probable-causes" rather than a volunteer having to reference some other web site - especially because Wikipedia has a tendency to blacklist car forums. Other interested mechanics will correct erroneous postings, the same way Wikipedia's checks and balances corrects all entries.

Key question: Should there be a heading of OBD DTC Codes with each page being codes for that make/model/year, or should such codes be added to the existing web page for that particular car? My thinking is that it should be the former, and Wikipedia should actively invite car manufacturers, dealers, mechanics and car forums to populate the lists as time goes on.

Thoughts anyone?
CDT1997 (talk) 02:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

There are a number of issues with your proposal.

1. The OBD2 standard lists a number of standard DTCs. The manufacturer does not have to implement them but if the manufacture does use that code then it must be according to the standard. So manufacturers use non-standard codes. These are almost always proprietary and the manufactures guard them jealously. The expansive OBD2 monitor systems paid handsomely to get those lists. Any list found on a website is either standard (which we already have) or proprietary (which we are not allowed to have). There may be legal issues in copying or even pointing to those lists.
2. Sites that tend to have those types of lists also tend to disappear. Which makes it hard for us to put in supporting references so that readers can check our facts.
3. If the ECU says it has a short in the fuel pump relay then that also includes all the wiring between the ECU and the relay - including the fuse box. If we start telling people that DTC's for fuel pump relays means check your fuse box then we will be misleading people when the relay fails. A mechanic knows to checking everything from the relay back to the ECU - which will eventually find the fuse box problem if that is the cause.
4. The list of standard DTCs is huge. The list of proprietary DTCs is even bigger. And they are different for each combination of manufacturer, model, grade, engine, generation and sometimes the country it was sold in. A truly daunting task which I would not like to maintain.
5. Wikipedia is not a how-to manual. See WP:NOTHOWTO.

So, the idea is nice but bites off more than we can chew.  Stepho  talk  04:02, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. IPBilly (talk) 13:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed with Stepho. Basically, adding OBD codes would add a ton of difficult to access and difficult to maintain data with very little meaning for the average reader. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 16:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Something like this is well outside of Wikipedia's scope. I don't know if it would be suitable for something like Wikibooks or Wikisource, but it definitely isn't workable here. --Sable232 (talk) 23:17, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Rename of 'Electric vehicle network' article

Hi all - I chickened out of being bold because I realised I hadn't notified any wider audiences. I'm planning on moving Electric vehicle network to Electric vehicle charging network for the reasons outlined at Talk:Electric vehicle network#Page name. Any input welcomed. -- Chuq (talk) 04:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

GM platform disambiguations

GM A platform (1936) was recently moved to GM A platform (1925) with the claim "further research shows the platform was first introduced in 1925, when the B and C platforms were also introduced" (but no content was added to the article to that effect nor was any source provided).

But that brings me to a thought I've had for a while: why are these articles titled this way? Until 2013 they were all disambiguated with "FWD" or "RWD" in parentheses. This was changed with a claim of such disambiguation being "nonstandard" but I found no discussion of the sort. Now is as good a time as any to have that discussion. I believe the original nomenclature should be restored - "FWD" and "RWD" are hardly uncommon in general automotive journalism and unlikely to be confusing to the average reader. Having the year there instead may even be more confusing, on account of the fact that GM's platform lettering is much more closely associated with 1960s and newer cars and something like "1925" or "1936" is probably unexpected by most readers. --Sable232 (talk) 23:32, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Platform: "a raised level surface on which people or things can stand"

I'm just startled by this pronouncement leading off the article you refer to: "The GM A platform (1925) (commonly called A-body) ". I don't see how a pressed steel chassis is a platform. And —if someone wants to call it a platform for whatever reason— then why call it a body? !!! Eventually, I believe, the US auto industry did develop something they chose to call unitary construction (invented in Madison Avenue?) where they welded lots of things together (into a "unit") but I am unconvinced they were doing anything like this in 1925. More likely they were trying to remove a lot of the wood from their Fords and beginning to talk of all-steel Bodies? Maybe I'm quite wrong? Eddaido (talk) 00:33, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

See car platform, and the "__-body" is a colloquialism in common usage by enthusiasts. But in any case, this is completely off-topic to the naming discussion. --Sable232 (talk) 21:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I think using years as a disambiguator for something which existed for so long is quite confusing. Given that the main change is the configuration, I would agree with changing them back to (FWD) and (RWD). A7V2 (talk) 01:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I second restoring these titles.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I am also in favor of restoring these titles, not to mention expanding the "GM" as I've raised here.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 23:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Stepho-wrs: I cannot help viewing the introduction of the word PLATFORM in the name of this article as absurd. It simply confuses the issue to please a particular editor. Hard on everyone else ! Eddaido (talk) 02:43, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

The articles' titles don't necessarily have to be pleasing to anybody – I believe that titles should precisely define what their articles are about – even if that means that they appear like an internal type designation rather than a model name. Recently, we had a similar discussion on the German language version of Wikipedia on whether or not the Mercedes-Benz W 100 page should be moved to Mercedes-Benz 600. In the GM-platform case (and I also believe that the word platform should be used), characterising FWD and RWD seems more reasonable to me than using years. That is, because in the American automotive industry, model years are used, whereas in other countries the "year of manufacture" system is used instead. Years can be confusing to those who don't know the difference. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 07:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

About the word "platform" only. Of my four adult family members and two friends, only I knew what the term "platform" meant about autos. I think this is another case where editors think that field specialty terms are more commonly used than they are.

This and the following section seem related, MPV above too, this section is active. ReTeam (talk) 12:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

"Platform" is accepted nomenclature for describing the common underpinnings of various automobiles, it doesn't refer to a physical platform any more than it does when the word is used to describe software. A quick internet search will return millions of results, just read this one for instance. If I was to ask my family members what a pushrod was none would have a clue either, but that doesn't mean we don't use the word "pushrod" as there is nothing else adequate to describe it.  Mr.choppers | ✎  14:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

GM "Platforms"

Why is a 1925 pressed steel chassis being called a platform when it is obviously no such thing? Eddaido (talk) 21:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

A platform, as used in the industry now, is a chassis system, basically a floorpan (or family of floorpans), some suspensions, somewhat interchangeable, and a buncheroo of drivetrain options. Enjoy. Greglocock (talk) 10:26, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, so why's it being used for a 1925 attempt to do a part of the same job? Eddaido (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a case where we are better off using the nomenclature of the time vs trying to force modern terms onto the older designations. Also, in terms of "platform" we should keep in mind that a platform could be a common chassis or it could be a common set of components/family of components. A truck with a short and long wheel base clearly is a different chassis but could still be part of a common platform. Springee (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

perhaps a more pragmatic modern definition is that a platform is a thing that goes down the same assembly line. That is, of course, bollocks in reality. We used run all sorts down the line. Greglocock (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Don't get too hung up on a single definition of the word. We talk about computer platforms (Windows, Android, the Web), political platforms and car platforms. Platform just means something that can be built on to make the final product. See https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/platform  Stepho  talk  23:15, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Seconded. "Car platform" is a commonly used concept.  Mr.choppers | ✎  16:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Then we are agreed:

NOT a platform

A Platform

Eddaido (talk) 03:26, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't in that case since both of those are rather similar. They are a rolling chassis without body. The Plymouth looks somewhat similar to a modern pickup chassis which is a foundation for a range of trucks and SUVs. If a MFR called it a "body" or a "platform" I generally think we should use their terms (GM W-body cars for example). However, if we want to use "platform" as a universal term for vehicles that share a common design per their mfrs then I'm also OK with that. We shouldn't assume that "platform" implies something about how the vehicle is manufactured. Springee (talk) 04:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I see, but isn't your opinion a highly personal view? I strongly disagree with it - which is why I brought the matter up here. Cheers, Eddaido (talk) 05:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is. I mean look at the Android software platform. That looks nothing like the pictures you have posted but it's still considered a platform. If we move back to the automotive world, look at the Ford Panther platform. Here is a picture of the chassis [[2]] which looks very similar to the chassis shown above. Springee (talk) 13:34, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

But you make my Very Point ! The marvellous elasticity in your use of words to mean whatever you'd like them to mean at that particular moment. Doesn't it have to stop somewhere? I just put into the Google search box "biden's platform" and guess what, WP sprang instantly with the answer Political positions of Joe Biden. At some stage you have to decide what a word means within its context. You simply can't use it for vehicles the way you have begun to try to. Eddaido (talk) 05:49, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

""Car platform" is a commonly used concept" has been posted above @Mr.choppers:. Used by who? Everyone on this page knows the idea, of course, but how many common readers? (From a US POV here). Do you think most people think of their cars as "platforms"?

In the US the term "platform" wasn't common before the "world cars" (I don't know about Europe). Before that they were bodies. This Motor Trend's 1977 New Car Issue used (letter)-body except for X-car. Now we are using the term for a 1925 Chevy retroactively (ex-post facto?), long before the term was used at all?

@Springee: posted: "I think this is a case where we are better off using the nomenclature of the time vs trying to force modern terms onto the older designations". I agree. Sources from the time aren't going to use "platform". It is not authentic(?) to the time.

I think "platform" screams "industry jargon". Screams. Maybe that's not bad for today. But going back and using it in 1925 screams enthusiast jargon. Sort of revisionist history.

Or is this a US/Br/EU English ENGVAR garbage deal? They weren't platforms here then and I'd be surprised if they are commonly here now.

For whatever reason I believe editors have used industry jargon common to them where it wasn't originally used, doesn't fit very well, and isn't needed. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 02:24, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sammy D III: I mainly bristle at the notion that we are not allowed to use commonly accepted words to describe various concepts (see MPV discussion above), and "platform" is not an unusual word to describe the common underpinnings of several designs. I do see your point, however, in that this may be an unsuitable neologism in this case. General Motors A-body (RWD) is probably a better typical title for these pages. While "body" is even less accurate than "platform" for describing a shared chassis and mechanicals, it is what GM and most commentators use.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:16, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

A problem with using "-body" in this case is that it only applies to certain instances - many platforms are not referred to in that way (e.g. GM Delta platform). Consistent terminology across articles would be preferable.

I have an issue with assuming complete incompetence on the part of the average Wikipedia reader. Most with enough of an interest in the subject to click the link for one of these articles are probably not going to be completely bewildered at the concept - and for those who have never heard of it before, car platform is linked in the first sentence in most (if not all) cases. In fact, "platform" is what the pertinent infobox field is titled - what's the alternative? --Sable232 (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

While I see the inconsistency issue, I think we should use the wp:COMMONNAME. I just noticed that the GM F-body cars are listed as F-platform. The problem is no one call it that. [[3]][[4]][[5]]. One of those did say "F-body platform". However, this might also be a case of confusing terms. The GM F-body article covers several generations of Camaros/Firebirds where there is basically nothing in common between those from the late 60s vs from the late 90s. They wouldn't be considered the same GM platform. I think GM used body to refer to a size/market segment rather than a common set of parts as they did with the Alpha and Gamma Platforms. In this case we really should change articles like GM F-platform to GM F-body since this follows both common name and common sense given how GM was using the term. Springee (talk) 18:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I enjoyed watching that, it got me thinking. No real focus, though.

Side note: I didn't know that MPV is an aka for Minivan (US POV). Ross (I ask too) thought Unimog. I know the term, of course, but using it for a whole type? (Interesting story). Someone who grew up in a MPV market just assumed I knew that. That looks like a huge US-centric knowledge gap to me, and I didn't notice.

This isn't ready, but the real world... My problem isn't with using the word "platform", just where. Especially in titles for pre-"platform" common use vehicles.

Platform is industry jargon here, I haven't gotten any hits either (computers come up). Every editor probably agrees that world cars have platforms, even though the readers may not know. It almost has to go in the text of one, it'll be in context or linked.

I question whether the term should be used for vehicles from before it was common in auto circles. Especially in titles.

I don't know Br/EU English, when did "platform" become car-talk there? VW and Renault (shudder) had real platforms, but was a Reliant Kitten (Flipping Bangers) on the same "platform" as a saloon in the UK Motor Trend whatever at that time?

I think I saw a world car article with several international names with "platform", that made sense as a device. You are grouping different names together and "platform" is as good a word as any, "family" seems like writing down. I wouldn't think "platform" was confusing used like that.

I thought the whole point of "MPV" was what incompetence is. Just because someone doesn't know as much as me doesn't mean they're incompetent, only that they haven't the knowledge on that particular subject and I shouldn't assume that they do.

Or I can be obsolete. I spend time in the past, using archaic/industry/scientific words which apply to the subject in context. And I think a '25 Chevy is in the past. But maybe everything should be updated to contemporary languages.

I'll try harder next time, circumstances. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I am in agreement that the "platform" expression does not need to be applied retroactively, at least not when those items already have accepted names - in addition to the A-body and X-car etcetera, I just realized to my dismay that the Tipo Quattro has been titled Type Four platform here (in Scandinavia it was referred to as the "Club of Four"). I really do not think "platform" is the correct word for many of these articles. Are there any editors who oppose some judicious renamings, mainly for the very clear cases?  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:24, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm in total agreement in cases where the mfr and/or publications do not refer to it as a "platform". Wikipedia should not try to change terms used in sources to fit out current views. Springee (talk) 03:01, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi. I thought I might add a few comments as to whether the term should be "platform" or "body" and thought maybe we could look at how it began in the very early days. GM in 1909 bought several companies to include Oldsmobile, Buick, Oakland and Cadillac. As they were still making cars using the process at the time which was bare chassis, engine and suspension, then contracted the coachwork or "body" to former buggy makers, the body for GM cars was done by Fisher Body and then individualized for each brand, meaning lots of chrome on Cadillacs and basic appearance items for Chevrolet. In 1925, when the A-, B-, and C- "body" were introduced, it was so they could standardize production at Fisher. If you look at the cars from 1925-1940, all GM cars are almost identical, with minor changes every year. The "body" used was influenced by the wheelbase while the coachwork came from several Fisher factories which shared body pieces for each brand. When Harley Earl retired in 1958, every GM car and truck all had an almost identical appearance with dual headlights, probably a tribute to Mr. Earl, then in 1960 everything changed radically when Bill Mitchell took over. So, should the term "platform" which is more modern, or "body" be used? I think the GM fanbase would say "body".(Regushee (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2021 (UTC))

Just a note: I think that someone doing this will find out that US Chrysler also used Letter(=size) body designations in the 1960s-1970s. No idea about Ford. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Ford did it at least with the Fox-body. While the article is called Ford Fox platform a look at the citations makes it clear the "Fox-body" is the common name. It's probably worth listing out articles like this so we as a group can change the names. Springee (talk) 03:18, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

And this is only US English so far. @Mr.choppers: sort of showed the nightmare non-English names could become. Sammy D III (talk) 11:20, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I think this wouldn't be a problem since we should only use "-body" where sources do the same. We have that for many US Ford and GM platforms but I don't think we have that for source talking about platforms outside the US. I also think Ford and GM moved away from the term as they started to adopt more "world car" designs. Springee (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

You could be right, it was just a thought. I have no idea what the British call their autos. I'm also thinking definition, but I'm not from here. I personally think all world cars have platforms and have seen it done correctly as a title. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 12:34, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I think we are starting to reach an agreement that some of the "x platform" articles should be renamed based on what sources call them. I'm trying to decide the best way to phrase things. Take the F-body cars. The F-body refers to multiple, largely unrelated generations of Camaro/Firebird cars not unlike the F-series refers to many generations of Ford trucks. Thus I wouldn't be OK calling this the "F-Body Platform" as it's actually a series of platforms. Also, would we call it a "platform" if it only sits under one car? For example, is the Corvette C7 a platform or just a single car? I personally think it would be OK to call it a platform that just happens to underpin only one car. In the case of the F-body cars I would suggest saying "F-body" was the name of a series of platforms. Springee (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

In titles only use anything when necessary. - In the US for titles on pre-"world cars" you could just default to "body", both the commonname and usually "official" name". - In the blurb editors will always use platform whenever they want, and since it is sort of a vague term they'll be right most of the time. - I can see a C7 's body platform, the part of the car the components attach to. The idea of it. I don't think the C7 is a platform because there are two different bodies, hard and soft top. I would like a wider range, but that's just my outside opinion. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I see your point but consider the GM Kappa platform that was under the Saturn Sky, Opel something and Pontiac Solstice. These would generally be seen as a rebadged jobs with only two body styles (and changes to non-structural panels). This as opposed to a flexible platform (for example Ford's CD3 which produced both sedans and SUVs). Anyway, I guess the answer is, "use your head when making changes". Springee (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

CarZing: Article Review

Hello - I'm writing on behalf of my client, CarZing. CarZing’s mission is to make auto financing quick and easy while providing a modern, hassle free way of shopping for cars. The article (see draft) was submitted back in December 2020, and is still waiting to be reviewed. Google Search is currently showing outdated company info until this article can help update SEO, which is causing some customers to get confused. My client and I would greatly appreciate if someone could assist in reviewing the article draft. Thank you so much for your help! - Chase — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:C244:2300:2D42:BA6C:A33F:FD27 (talk) 23:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Two separate articles for pretty much identical topic

This has baffled me for a while. There are currently two separate articles regarding Hyundai's N brand: Hyundai N brand and Hyundai N. Both were created in a very short timeframe (5 days, the former being created first and has more revisions). Previously, there was an undiscussed merge proposal prior to being closed on 14 April. Which one should be merged to? (in this case to a more appropriate title) 182.30.205.232 (talk) 06:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

It should be Hyundai N, as long as there's no ambiguity. See also BMW M, Lexus F. --Vossanova ^o< 12:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Automotive industry in Japan

Would some members of this WikiProject mind taking a look at Automotive industry in Japan#Car Brands? It seems rather excessive and unbalanced to have an image gallery of logos right after the lead section and it was a bold addition made by an IP editor a few weeks ago. Of course, being bold and being made by an IP aren't necessarily bad things, but in this case a little more discussion might be a good idea. There is some more information about Japanese automobile manufacturers in Automotive industry in Japan#Manufacturers where perhaps these logos might be better incorporated, but at the same time there's doesn't really seem to be a lot of encyclopedic relevance to adding them to this more general article per WP:GALLERY, etc. since their use appears more decorative than contextual, at least it does to me. There's also a problem with non-free content use because there's pretty much no way to justify the use of any non-free logo in an image gallery such as this per WP:NFG. The ones currently shown all appear to be from Commons; so, that's not an issue at the moment. Someone has, however, tired to add several non-free logos to this gallery and they have been repeatedly removed by a WP:BOT because their use isn't policy compliant. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:18, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: I already removed this gallery, just now saw this comment. WP:BRD and all that.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:42, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mr.choppers:. The edit summary you left here was probably because my above post was a bit confusing. While it's true that non-free logos can't really be used in a image gallery like, freely-licensed or public domain logos can. Since the gallery you removed didn't contain any non-free logos (a bot had already removed them), there were really no non-free content use policy concerns that needed addressing. However, the gallery did seem undue and not very encyclopedic, and removing it was (in my opinion) the proper thing to do; just not for the reason you gave. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Hyundai N brand to Hyundai N merger

Hello, fellow members? I believe that to create more consistency in this encyclopedia if we didn't have two different articles with the same name. Therefore, I shall try to merge the Hyundai N brand article to the Hyundai N article. Would any members of this WikiProject assist me?JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 17:54, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Update: I just did that by myself :P--JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 19:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

List of production battery electric vehicles table expansion/merger

We need an expert (not me, currently I'm dumb) to restore the "completeness" of the table in List of production battery electric vehicles after the epic merge.JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 21:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Reverted the merge because it is a massive removal of information. Regards, Andra Febrian (talk) 02:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I think it's obvious a merge is necessary. The title List of production battery electric vehicles (table) is an egregious MOS violation, and the two pages are content forks of each other. That said, I thought I advised that the content should be merged (both sets of content on one page) as an intermediate stage, not replaced. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:57, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I think it should be merged to make this encyclopedia more easy to use. We're improving, and I will only re-merge when we reach a concensus, which should be soon. The article List of production battery electric vehicles (table) clearly needs to be updated, violates WP:MOS and WP:CFORK policies, and should have been merged a long time ago to avoid me getting in trouble for blanking.If we agree that the table is the right choice, then we will work together to merge the two articles. If the list is after all better, then I will CSD the table as an unnessecary disambiguation page. And my mentor will probably hate me.JTZegers^Speak
_Aura 12:26, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

GM and Opel diesels

Hi y'all, does anyone know any more about Opel's new diesel threes and fours? I have sussed out that they share their architecture with GM's new Duramax I6 engine. The three-cylinder engine is currently included in GM Medium Diesel engine, but I don't know that this is correct as it is a whole new design. Maybe they should be part of the Duramax I6 article, but this would need a new name. Does anyone know what Opel calls this engine? Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  18:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

General Motors companion make program at FAC

Hello,

I just wanted to let you know that I have nominated General Motors companion make program at FAC here. Thanks!

 – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Simca Horizon

I started a renaming discussion at Talk:Simca-Talbot_Horizon#Requested_move_9_May_2021, please weigh in there if you have the time. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  23:46, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Template:Infobox racing driver has an RFC

Template:Infobox racing driver has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Arbiter. WPA's choice of names is a guide for those writing about automobiles in English

It may give a few motoring journalists a bit of a laugh but I think the members of this project should face up to their responsibility. You people decide the terminology used particularly where editors are using English as a second language and are aware they can misuse or misunderstand English words. Don't let it become a muddle. Eddaido (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That's okay - I also got quite a laugh when I saw lot's of 'infart' and 'utfart' signs when driving around Europe (they mean entrance and exit). We will never please everybody because English differs around the world. We still argue about bonnet vs hood, boot vs trunk and petrol vs gasoline. Such is the world we live in.  Stepho  talk  06:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)