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==Ceremonial First Pitch==
I know this page is evolving as the Series progresses, but does each game summary ''really'' have to begin with who threw out the [[ceremonial first pitch]]? This is probably about as superfluous as it gets and is completely unrelated to the events that transpire in each game. If ceremonial first pitch just ''has'' to be included, could it be included somewhere as to not disrupt the flow of reading the game summaries? 

For example, for Game 2 it'd be much more interesting, and valuable to the reader, for the summary to begin with it stating that Game 2 was the first World Series game ever won by the Astros... it's not interesting, or pertinent, that Vin Scully and Fernando Valenzuela threw out the ceremonial first pitch and yet that's exactly what starts off the Game 2 summary. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 04:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:I would tend to agree, but it looks like that is consistent with how the previous world series articles were handled. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 12:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::The classic WP dilemma of being consistently bad or inconsistently good (I'd choose the latter).—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 12:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::This only has been done since the 2015 World Series.  I vote to remove it. [[User:Eposty|posty]] ([[User talk:Eposty|talk]]) 14:14, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I've been the one adding it since 2015, I guess. Why is it superfluous? It's the ceremonial start of the game, it honors people associated with the home team, and in only one sentence. [[Ceremonial first pitch]] is a notable topic. I definitely disagree with starting the Game 2 summary with who won, the game summary should be chronological and that starts with the CFP, starting pitchers, and then the first inning, or first action. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::It’s superfluous in that the game summary should be the summary of the game and not pre-game ceremonies. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::The pre-game ceremonies are part of the story of the game though... as are the national anthem singers for that matter. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 19:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Acknowledged, but that sort of information should be in its appropriate place, and not in the game summary logs. Does it really make sense to have game summary logs start off with who sang the national anthem, who threw out the first pitch, who announced the players for both teams, who the sponsors are...? People look to a game summary to see what the summary of the game is, and not for the pre-game ceremony info. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 19:35, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::I think it's part of the game. I draw the line with the national anthem singers. What would you suggest is the appropriate place for CFP? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 20:31, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::I wonder if it would fit in as a one-line thing underneath the start time and temperature before the box score? [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::Like, in the "Other" parameter of {{tl|Linescore}}? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yea... if it doesnt look weird. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 21:04, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::I know we're not supposed to do test edits, but [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2017_World_Series&diff=807252794&oldid=807241207 here it is]. [[WP:IAR]], right? To me, it looks cluttered. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::::It looks alright to me, takes it out of the text and still keeps it tied to the game. Unless someone has a better idea? [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 21:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I don’t think that the CFP even deserves to be mentioned to be honest. It’s purely a publicity stunt that has zero relevance to the game being played. I know there’s been a sort of natural push to include more and more of these little tidbits of information in wiki articles in recent years so I wouldn’t dare challenge to exclude it completely, but to be honest if it wasn’t even mentioned I think these articles would be better for it. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 21:20, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::{{re|Muboshgu}} Disagree that a game summary should be purely chronological.  First paragraph should summarize the key points of the game, for the many readers that wont bother to read the finer points of action.  Its the equivalent of the lead for the individual game.  CFP should be on a per case basis.  Robinson in Game 1 AFAIK was purely ceremonial, and thus trivial.  Scully in Game 2 might be more notable, since he retired only a year ago, and the first pitch act went on for a few minutes.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 01:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::I don't agree with that re: chronology. Anyone wanting the quick summary can read the line score. Games go inning by inning. It doesn't make sense to me to mention in prose something about, say, extra innings of Game 2, without first covering the first nine innings. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 01:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::I agree with Mubo here... there should be an overall summary of the series at the top somewhere.. no need to do that with each game. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 02:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::The linescore only tells what team scored, and doesn't capture the players and key points involved.  See [[WP:PYRAMID]] for details on this style: "{{tq|this style encourages brevity and prioritizes information, because many people expect to find important material early, and less important information later, where interest decreases.}}" For example the brief lead for Game 2 could read something like "Springer hit a 2-run homer in the top of the 11th inning to lead the Astros to a 7–6 win over the Dodgers. The Dodgers' rallied in the bottom of the inning when Culbertson hit a two-out homer off Devenski, who struck out Puig to earn the win for the game. A record eight home runs were hit in the game, including six in the final three innings."  It's fine that the first iterations are chronological, as some of you are live editing the game.  But I fail to see the downside if someone later edits to summarize the key points first, making it more useful for readers, and moving less important items like CFP down.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 02:30, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::I agree with [[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]], and what he posted from [[WP:PYRAMID]] applies to the inclusion of the Ceremonial First Pitch always leading off each game summary. That is easily the least important information in each summary and yet it's exactly what is leading off each summary currently. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 02:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::For Game 2, I went ahead and added highlights in opening paragraph and moved ceremonial pitch to end.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 11:25, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::Thank you [[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]], I just did the same for Games 1 and 3. I still feel that all this Ceremonial First Pitch information should either be removed completely, or placed in a completely different section of the article. For a Game Summary to begin like this: '''"[[Houston Texans]] defensive end [[J. J. Watt]], who had raised $37 million for [[Hurricane Harvey]] victims, threw out the first pitch."''' is uncyclopedic as J.J. Watt's charity contributions, while noble and very wonderful of him, have zero to do with the World Series. I mean we're explaining to the reader what the person did to justify his throwing out the first pitch in the game summaries? How is that information pertinent to the game summary that this section should be about? [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 22:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::I added to article that Game 1 was anniversary of Robinson's death, and 2017 was 7th anniversary of his breaking color line. That type of context makes it relevant. I'm OK with keeping those CFPs that have some relevance to the WS or the teams, or like Watt with the city of Houston and the hurricane.  Perhaps they are always notable, but just simply dropping a name without any other context makes the mere act of the CFP sound trivial for most.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 13:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:Ok, so [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] decided to undo the edits that [[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] and I discussed here above. I do not wish to get into an edit war with this, but there seems to be a consensus that having the Ceremonial First Pitch begin each game summary should be changed and [[WP:PYRAMID]] sets president against having info such as Ceremonial first pitch begin a section like this. In order to get this addressed civilly, what should be the next step? [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 01:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::I say table it until the series is over and it can be reworked with more of a historical perspective. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 02:04, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::I didn't see a consensus on this issue. I expressed that I disagree, so it's 2 to 1 plus Spanneraol opposing using [[WP:PYRAMID]] here, unless I'm mistaken. On articles as important as the World Series to [[WP:BASEBALL]] should get more input, and be discussed for more than a day. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 04:04, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::Acknowledged. This clearly needs further action and should be addressed. However, there was no need to undo the edits that [[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] and I did earlier, especially in light that we used president, discussed it here and the CFP info was not removed, just placed in a different part of the Game Summary. Remember, [[Wikipedia:Ownership of content|no one owns a Wiki article]]. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 04:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I don't own the article, but there wasn't consensus to make those changes yet. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::There was less "consensus" to keep the CFP as the first sentence, so that revert could only stoke an edit war, which I'm glad {{u|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog }} avoided.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 13:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC) 
After looking at the examples, I think having a brief game summary at the start of the section for each game makes the article seem like a collection of wire stories rather than an encyclopedia article. If there is going to be a summary of highlights for each game, I suggest it would fit better in the "Summary" section, providing readers with a quick overview of the entire series. I personally prefer having each game section begin with the starting pitchers. I think that for the most part, pre-game ceremonies could be moved to the end of the section, as an event that does not affect the competitive outcome. (Exceptions could be made for truly exceptional cases, such as a special commemoration for a global event.) If putting this information in the summary box, I don't like having it under the table caption, as I think it gives it undue prominence. I would prefer it to be at the bottom of the box. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 05:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:Regarding your comment regarding a "wire story" vs "encyclopedia article", which encyclopedia would you be referencing?  ''Encyclopedia Brittanica'' and the like don't even get into game-by-game details, so what is the reference point you are proposing.  I still maintain it's presumptuous that a reader would (or must) want to read the article or a section from beginning to end; [[WP:SUMMARY]] and [[WP:PYRAMID]] reflect that spirt. [[2014 NBA Finals#Game summaries]] would be my suggested model.  The series is summarized at the top level with little specific game details, with more stats and sports details than you would find in the lead.  The individual games each have a brief overview on the highlights, followed by some chronological details.  Granted the challenge is that basketball was never going to write about each score, so selective highlights are a given, while in other sports the inclination is to write about each score.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 12:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::I think it's more presumptuous to assume most readers will expect to see a summary of each section at the start of it, which leads to repetition. The lead section will already summarize the biggest highlights, and then each game section would repeat the highlights twice. Readers are used to this in a newspaper article, but an encyclopedia article is not just a collection of mini-encyclopedia articles, so it's not a bad thing for the sections to rely on each other. Readers not interested in reading the entire article would likely appreciate having all game summaries in the "Summary" section, saving them time. Readers who want more details could easily skip this section and go straight to the individual game sections. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 16:06, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I agree with this approach. Summarize the main points of the whole series in the summary section and then have the game by game sections talk about it in chronological order. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 16:41, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Looking at the [[2016 World Series]] article, the seventh-inning stretch singers in Chicago for "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" are listed in the first sentence. Strictly speaking, if it were to be organized chronologically, it should come later. Combining the two events into one sentence is treating ceremonial aspects of the game in a different way than the competitive portion, which I feel is apt. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 05:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:The ceremonial aspects are generally not as core to understanding of the game, and should be relegated to the end of a game summary as you suggested earlier.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 13:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::I'm fine with that.. or maybe even strip them from the game summaries entirely and have a new section that combines all the ceremonial aspects into one section. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]])
:::Idk if CFPs are important enough to merit their own sections, but they certainly don't belong in game summaries so I'm for removing it form that info from the Game summary sections.  [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
===Arbitrary break===
I guess there's another option. The "notes" parameter in {{tl|linescore}}
{{linescore
|Date=October 24, 2017
|Time=5:11{{nbsp}}pm ([[Pacific Time Zone|PDT]])
|Location=[[Dodger Stadium]] in [[Los Angeles|Los Angeles, California]],
|Other={{convert|103|F|C}}, clear
|Road=Houston|RoadAbr=HOU
|R1=0|R2=0|R3=0|R4=1|R5=0|R6=0|R7=0|R8=0|R9=0|RR=1|RH=3|RE=0
|Home='''Los Angeles'''|HomeAbr=LAD
|H1=1|H2=0|H3=0|H4=0|H5=0|H6=2|H7=0|H8=0|H9=x|HR=3|HH=6|HE=0
|WP=[[Clayton Kershaw]] (1–0)|LP=[[Dallas Keuchel]] (0–1)|SV=[[Kenley Jansen]] (1)
|RoadHR=[[Alex Bregman]] (1)|HomeHR=[[Chris Taylor (baseball)|Chris Taylor]] (1), [[Justin Turner]] (1)
|Attendance=54,253
|Notes=The [[ceremonial first pitch]] was thrown out by members of former Dodger [[Jackie Robinson]]'s family, including his widow [[Rachel Robinson|Rachel]].
}}
:Uh, no. Whether or not the first pitch info should be included in the article is a valid debate. However, to include it in the line score would indicate that it is part of the actual game, which it is most certainly not. [[User:Jdavi333|Jdavi333]] ([[User talk:Jdavi333|talk]]) 19:49, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::I agree with [[User:Jdavi333|Jdavi333]] that this should not be included in the boxscore... that will only open up people wanting to include who sang the national anthem and the celebrity who sang "Take Me Out the Ball Game" in the boxscore as well. Besides, MLB boxscores (which wiki boxscores duplicate) don't include such superfluous information. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 20:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::If "the game" is only defined as the action from the first pitch of the first inning to the handshake line at the end of the game, then yes, CFP is not part of the game. But if one considers "the game" to include what happens when the fans are in the stadium, then yeah it's part of the game. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 20:11, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::Is batting practice part of the game? Or post-game fireworks? Or other random things that happen from opening of the gates till they close? Of course not. The game is the game. everything else is superfluous. [[User:Jdavi333|Jdavi333]] ([[User talk:Jdavi333|talk]]) 20:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::Yuli Gurriel's suspension came between games and is still relevant. So is what I'm reading about slicker baseballs making it difficult to throw sliders. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 20:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::The ceremonial first pitch is included on the Fox broadcast.. the fireworks and batting practice are not.. that alone makes it more important. Also only the Cubs do that cheesy celebrity singing take me out to the ballgame thing.. and fortunately they arent in this series.[[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 20:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:Alright, we're straying off topic with this here and that is exactly my point. The CFP does not belong in the game summary sections, and its very inclusion will lead to the desire to include additional pre-game pomp and circumstances that clearly do not belong in such a section. Readers go to the game summary to read about the game. Not the CFP, not who sang the national anthem or to find out the fire-marshal who approved that night's fireworks, but the game itself. For example, it's far more important for a reader to know that [[Bill Buckner]] misplayed a grounder rolling on the first base side during Game 6 of the [[1986 World Series]] than it is to know who threw out the first pitch of that game. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 20:55, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:Furthermore, when I came here to read about Game 2 the other day, I found myself reading all about how [[Fernando Valenzuela]] and [[Steve Yeager]] threw out the ceremonial first pitches and how they were introduced by retired Dodgers broadcaster [[Vin Scully]] and I realized that I just read a ton of information and yet still knew ''nothing'' about what happened in the actual game. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 21:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::You read one sentence, which mentioned two former Dodgers players and a former announcer, that's not a "ton of information". You can't just then read the second sentence, which mentions who started the game, and then read the third sentence, which talks about how the game went? Instead, the Game 2 summary, in PYRAMID style, is a mess, duplicating information about extra innings, and leading with extra innings skipping everything that happened before it. Readers should be able to read about what they see in the broadcast; I think Spanneraol's point was right on target. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ec}} On any other article all this would be removed as trivia, if it must be there, why not add a sub-section say, "Ceremonies" and add the first pitches and anthem singers and any thing else that might apply.  - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">[[User:FlightTime|<span style="color:#800000">'''FlightTime'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:FlightTime|<span style="color:#FFD700">'''open channel'''</span>]])</small></span> 21:14, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I'm completely for removing CFP as it's trivial information at best. If we can close this soon and move on with our lives without getting into edit wars then that would be awesome. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 21:21, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::I don't see any consensus. Maybe we can do an informal vote to see what solutions are the most popular? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:27, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::Spanneraol was fine with moving the ceremonial events to the end of each game section, or to a separate section; can most of the commenters live with this approach? From what I can see, this is in general alignment with most of the expressed views to de-emphasize this aspect of the game. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:30, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I would say separate section for the time being. [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] seems to be the only one in favor of keeping that data. I feel it's trivial and should not even be in the article, but if it just has to be in the article then a separate section is where it should be for now. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 21:32, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::I can live with finding a separate section to put it in. But where exactly would that go? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:35, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::There can be a new section that focuses on non-game aspects of the series.. which might be a better place for the "slick baseball" controversy also. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]])
:::::::Do we feel that we've reached consensus on this issue? I'd like to go ahead and dump CFP data into a different section but don't wish to go through the effort if it's simply going to be reverted by someone. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 21:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::I'm willing to accept that I'm on the short end of this discussion, but what has been decided? What "different section" would it be moved to? How high or low in the article? How big or small? If you're just going to "dump" the data, the way you do it might get it reverted. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::Dump the data at the bottom of the article, below the Broadcasting section. Call the section "Pomp and Circumstances", "Public Relations" or "Trivia". I don't care, be creative. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 21:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::I created a Pre-Game Ceremonies section [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_World_Series#Pre-Game_Ceremonies] at the bottom of the page and moved the lines there. It can be sorted out in that section by another editor. [[User:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|Darwin&#39;s Bulldog]] ([[User talk:Darwin&#39;s Bulldog|talk]]) 22:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::::::::I moved it up, because "pre-game" ceremonies should not be the last thing presented in the article. We might then be adding national anthem singers and such to that section, which I would've never added to the game by game breakdowns. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:55, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::::::::::If its gonna be listed as "pre game ceremonies" it probably should include the anthem singers.. and other things that happened during pre-game.. like Josh Reddick being soundly booed during his game 1 introductions thanks to his pre-series comments about LA fans. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 22:59, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't agree that the first pitch information should be included in the above line score box rather, it should be mentioned in the text of the article. While the information can be construed as trivial, sometimes trivial facts are interesting, such as when [[Pie Traynor]] threw out the first pitch of Game 3 of the [[1971 World Series]] at Three Rivers Stadium, symbolically tying the then new stadium to the old Forbes Field Pirates. It was timely too as Traynor died in 1972.[[User:Orsoni|Orsoni]] ([[User talk:Orsoni|talk]]) 20:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

== [[WP:PYRAMID]] ==

There's a bit in the [[#Ceremonial First Pitch]] thread about this, but the two items need to be treated separately. As of the moment of my edit, Game 2 is presented in [[WP:PYRAMID]] style, while Games 1, 3, and 4 are presented in a straight chronological style.

{{collapse top|title=Game 1 - chronological}}
;Game 1
[[File:Clayton Kershaw (8664742364).jpg|right|upright|thumb|[[Clayton Kershaw]] pitched seven innings with 11 [[strikeout]]s in winning Game 1.]]
{{linescore
|Date=October 24, 2017
|Time=5:11{{nbsp}}pm ([[Pacific Time Zone|PDT]])
|Location=[[Dodger Stadium]] in [[Los Angeles|Los Angeles, California]],
|Other={{convert|103|F|C}}, clear
|Road=Houston|RoadAbr=HOU
|R1=0|R2=0|R3=0|R4=1|R5=0|R6=0|R7=0|R8=0|R9=0|RR=1|RH=3|RE=0
|Home='''Los Angeles'''|HomeAbr=LAD
|H1=1|H2=0|H3=0|H4=0|H5=0|H6=2|H7=0|H8=0|H9=x|HR=3|HH=6|HE=0
|WP=[[Clayton Kershaw]] (1–0)|LP=[[Dallas Keuchel]] (0–1)|SV=[[Kenley Jansen]] (1)
|RoadHR=[[Alex Bregman]] (1)|HomeHR=[[Chris Taylor (baseball)|Chris Taylor]] (1), [[Justin Turner]] (1)
|Attendance=54,253
}}
The [[ceremonial first pitch]] was thrown out by members of former Dodger [[Jackie Robinson]]'s family, including his widow [[Rachel Robinson|Rachel]].<ref>{{cite news|last=McIntosh|first=Whitney|title=Jackie Robinson’s family threw out the first pitch for Game 1 of the World Series|url=https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/10/24/16539176/jackie-robinson-family-first-pitch-game-1-world-series|website=SB Nation|date=October 24, 2017|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref> The game marked the 45th anniversary of Robinson's death, and the 2017 season was the 70th anniversary of his breaking the [[Baseball color line|baseball color line]].<ref>{{cite news|last=Walker|first=Rhiannon|title=Jackie Robinson’s family tosses first pitch as Dodgers take Game 1 of World Series|date=October 25, 2017|work=The Undefeated|url=https://theundefeated.com/features/jackie-robinson-family-tosses-first-pitch-as-dodgers-take-game-1-of-world-series/|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20171029132511/https://theundefeated.com/features/jackie-robinson-family-tosses-first-pitch-as-dodgers-take-game-1-of-world-series/|archivedate=October 29, 2017|deadurl=no}}</ref> [[Clayton Kershaw]] started Game 1 for the Dodgers, while [[Dallas Keuchel]] started for the Astros.<ref>{{cite news|last=Varela|first=Ashley|title=World Series Game 1 will feature Dallas Keuchel vs. Clayton Kershaw|url=http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/10/22/world-series-game-1-will-feature-dallas-keuchel-vs-clayton-kershaw/|publisher=[[NBC Sports]]|date=October 22, 2017|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref> The temperature at the start of the game was {{convert|103|F}}, which made this the hottest World Series game ever recorded.<ref>{{cite news|last=Jacobo|first=Julia|title=103-degree heat shatters World Series record|url=http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/103-degree-heat-shatters-world-series-record/story?id=50695086|date=October 25, 2017|publisher=[[ABC News]]|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref>

[[Chris Taylor (baseball)|Chris Taylor]] hit a home run for the Dodgers on Keuchel's first pitch of the game. It was the third home run to leadoff a game in Dodgers postseason history (following [[Davey Lopes]] in [[1978 World Series]] and [[Carl Crawford]] in [[2013 NLDS]]).<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.truebluela.com/videos/2017/10/24/16540024/chris-taylor-home-run-leadoff-dodgers-world-series|title=Chris Taylor leads off the World Series with a home run|work=SB Nation|first=Eric|last=Stephen|date=October 24, 2017|accessdate=October 24, 2017}}</ref> [[Alex Bregman]] hit a tying solo home run for the Astros in the fourth inning. In the sixth inning, [[Justin Turner]] hit a go-ahead two-run home run for the Dodgers. Turner tied [[Duke Snider]] for most career [[runs batted in]] (RBIs) in Dodgers postseason history with 26.<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/2017/oct/24/world-series-2017-game-1-houston-astros-los-angeles-dodgers-live |title=World Series 2017 Game 1: Houston Astros 1-3 Los Angeles Dodgers – as it happened|date=October 24, 2017|work=Guardian|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref>	
Kershaw [[strikeout|struck out]] 11 in seven [[innings pitched]] with no walks and only three hits allowed while Keuchel allowed three runs on six hits in {{fraction|6|2|3}} innings. [[Brandon Morrow]] pitched a scoreless eighth and [[Kenley Jansen]] earned the [[save (baseball)|save]].<ref>{{cite news|last=Doolittle|first=Bradford|title=Kershaw aces Astros, rewrites October reputation in Dodgers' Game 1 win|url=http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/84055/kershaw-aces-astros-rewrites-october-reputation-in-dodgers-game-1-win|publisher=ESPN|date=October 24, 2017|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref>	
The two-hour, 28-minute game was the shortest World Series contest since Game 4 in {{wsy|1992}}.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://m.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article/259587014/dodgers-homers-back-clayton-kershaw-in-game-1/?topicId=27118384|title=Red hot! Turner HR backs Kershaw Gm. 1 gem|work=mlb.com|last1=Gurnick|first1=Ken|last2=McTaggart|first2=Brian|date=October 24, 2017|accessdate=October 24, 2017}}</ref>
{{reflist-talk}}
{{collapse bottom}}

{{collapse top|title=Game 2 - PYRAMID}}
;Game 2
[[File:George Springer in 2017 (36077792615).jpg|right|upright|thumb|[[George Springer]] drove in the game-winning run in Game 2.]]
{{linescore
|Date=October 25, 2017
|Time=5:17{{nbsp}}pm (PDT)
|Location=Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, California,
|Other={{convert|93|F|C}}, clear
|Road='''Houston'''|RoadAbr=HOU
|R1=0|R2=0|R3=1|R4=0|R5=0|R6=0|R7=0|R8=1|R9=1|R10=2|R11=2|RR=7|RH=14|RE=1
|Home=Los Angeles|HomeAbr=LAD
|H1=0|H2=0|H3=0|H4=0|H5=1|H6=2|H7=0|H8=0|H9=0|H10=2|H11=1|HR=6|HH=5|HE=0
|WP=[[Chris Devenski]] (1–0)|LP=[[Brandon McCarthy]] (0–1)|SV=
|RoadHR=[[Marwin González]] (1), [[José Altuve]] (1), [[Carlos Correa]] (1), [[George Springer]] (1)|HomeHR=[[Joc Pederson]] (1), [[Corey Seager]] (1), [[Yasiel Puig]] (1), [[Charlie Culberson]] (1)
|Attendance=54,293
}}

[[George Springer]] hit a two-run homer in the top of the 11th inning to lead the Astros to a 7–6 win over the Dodgers. The Dodgers' rallied in the bottom of the inning when [[Charlie Culberson]] hit a two-out homer off [[Chris Devenski]], who struck out [[Yasiel Puig]] to earn the win for the game.<ref name=marchand/> A record eight home runs were hit in the game, including six in the final three innings.<ref>{{cite news|last=Axisa|first=Mike|title=Astros stun Dodgers in 11 innings in World Series Game 2: Final score, things to know|date=October 25, 2017|website=CBSSports.com|url=https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/astros-stun-dodgers-in-11-innings-in-world-series-game-2-final-score-things-to-know/|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20171028111050/https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/astros-stun-dodgers-in-11-innings-in-world-series-game-2-final-score-things-to-know/|archivedate=October 28, 2017|deadurl=no}}</ref>

The starting pitchers for were [[Rich Hill (pitcher)|Rich Hill]] for the Dodgers and [[Justin Verlander]] for the Astros. The Astros scored first when Bregman drove in [[Josh Reddick]] with a hit in the third inning. Hill struck out seven in four innings but was replaced by [[Kenta Maeda]] in the fifth. [[Joc Pederson]] tied the game with a solo home run in the bottom of the fifth inning, and the Dodgers took the lead when [[Corey Seager]] hit a two-run home run in the bottom of the sixth inning. Verlander allowed two hits, both home runs, in his six innings pitched. [[Carlos Correa]] drove in the Astros second run of the game on a single in the eighth, ending the Dodgers bullpen's streak of 28 consecutive scoreless innings in the postseason. [[Marwin González]] hit a home run off Jansen in the ninth to tie the game.<ref name=game2/> This was only Jansen's second blown save all season and snapped his streak of converting his first 12 postseason save opportunities, a major league record.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://m.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article/259718032/dodgers-move-on-from-world-series-game-2-loss/|title=Resilient Dodgers putting loss behind them|work=mlb.com|first=Ken|last=Gurnick|date=October 26, 2017|accessdate=October 26, 2017}}</ref>

The game went into [[extra innings]]. [[José Altuve]] and Correa hit home runs off [[Josh Fields (pitcher)|Josh Fields]] in the tenth inning to put the Astros in the lead. In the bottom of the inning, [[Yasiel Puig]] hit a home run off of [[Ken Giles]] and [[Enrique Hernández (baseball)|Enrique Hernández]] drove in [[Logan Forsythe]] to tie the game, with the latter being the Dodgers' first run that was not driven in by a home run. In the next inning, Springer hit his two-run home run for the Astros off of [[Brandon McCarthy]] to retake the lead. In the bottom of the 11th inning, Culberson homered off of Devenski, but struck out Puig to end the game. This was the first ever World Series game in which a team hit home runs in the ninth, tenth and eleventh inning.<ref name=marchand>{{cite news|last=Marchand|first=Andrew|title=Astros' stars stage stunning comeback to even World Series|url=http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/84114/astros-stars-stage-stunning-comeback-to-even-world-series|publisher=ESPN|date=October 25, 2017|accessdate=October 26, 2017}}</ref><ref name=game2>{{cite web|url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/sports/world-series-dodgers-astros.html|title=World Series 2017: Dodgers vs. Astros Game 2 Live Updates|first1=Benjamin|last1=Hoffman|first2=David|last2=Waldstein|work=The New York Times|date=October 25, 2017|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref> It was also the first time in MLB history, regular season or postseason, that five home runs were hit in extra innings.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://m.mlb.com/news/article/259714382/astros-dodgers-provide-epic-world-series-game/|title=Astros, Dodgers author a classic Fall Classic thriller|work=mlb.com|first=Richard|last=Justice|date=October 26, 2017|accessdate=October 26, 2017}}</ref>

It was the Astros first ever win in the World Series, as they had been swept in their previous appearance in [[2005 World Series|2005]].<ref>{{cite web|last1=Gurnick|first1=Ken|last2=McTaggart|first2=Brian|title=Astros even Series with late HRs in G2 thriller|url=http://m.mlb.com/news/article/259674058/astros-rally-past-dodgers-to-even-world-series/|work=MLB.com|date=October 25, 2017|accessdate=October 25, 2017}}</ref><ref>{{citeweb|url=https://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/2017/oct/25/world-series-2017-game-2-houston-astros-v-los-angeles-dodgers-live |title=World Series 2017: Astros rally to beat Dodgers in dramatic Game 2 – as it happened |date=25 October 2017|work=Guardian|accessdate=26 October 2017}}</ref> [[Fernando Valenzuela]] threw out the ceremonial first pitch to [[Steve Yeager]]; both were introduced by retired Dodgers broadcaster [[Vin Scully]].<ref>{{cite news|last=Rollins|first=Khadrice|url=https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/10/25/vin-scully-brings-out-fernando-valenzuela-steve-yeager-first-pitch-video|title=Watch: Vin Scully brings Dodgers legends for 1st pitch|magazine=Sports Illustrated|date=October 25, 2017|accessdate=October 26, 2017|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|last=Markazi|first=Arash|url=http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/21158620/2017-world-series-vin-scully-fernando-valenzuela-part-houston-astros-los-angeles-dodgers-game-2-festivities|title=Beloved Scully delights Dodgers fans at Game 2|publisher=[[ESPN]]|date=October 25, 2017|accessdate=October 26, 2017}}</ref>
{{reflist-talk}}
{{collapse bottom}}
We need to pick one and stick with it. I vote for chronology. It makes no sense to talk about extra innings of a game, for instance, before talking about how we got there. Newspapers use PYRAMID style, and we are [[WP:NOTNEWS|not newspapers]], so we shouldn't write the way they do. We write two to three paragraphs for an entire game, there's no need to add extra summary to that. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:As I suggested above, the "Summary" section can contain brief game summaries, and the individual game sections can cover the game events in chronological order (leaving aside the question of ceremonial events). [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 21:36, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::I detest the use of the pyramid style in this instance.. that summary of game 2 makes it all about extra innings when the game itself had so much drama.. it's hard to properly express it unless it is told in chronological order. An overall summary as Isaacl suggests makes more sense. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 21:40, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Isaacl}}, I don't understand your suggestion, we would have two game summaries for each game in different parts of the article? Isn't that redundant? &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:47, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I believe he means a summary of the entire series that hits the major thematic beats and doesnt cover detailed play by play of each of the games. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 21:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::Well, something like that could work. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
::::The "Summary" section, instead of just having a table, would also include a brief summary of each game with just the key highlights. Thus there would be no need to have a brief summary of highlights at the start of each game section. The game sections would contain a more complete description of events. This puts the brief overview in one place, convenient for those skimming the article to get the gist, and easy to skip over for those wanting to read the details. It's reordering the redundancy to better serve each audience segment: Skimmers won't have to go from game section to game section to read the first paragraph, and others won't have to skip over the first paragraph in each section. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 00:28, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
:::{{re|Spanneraol}} The Game 2 summary can be edited to capture any key highlight missing. The main question is whther the concept of having a summary is useful to non-hardcore readers.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 02:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
I invite people to comment on the style at [[2014 NBA Finals#Game summaries]]. The top level describes the overall series and flow, without getting into much game-by-game details.  The individial games themselves start with a brief overview of  key points of a the game, followed by more specific game details.  Ultimately, as long as a reader is not necessarily forced to read everything from beginning to end and has more flexibility to skim highlights of game, I would be OK.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 02:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
:I don't think it's really comparable because Basketball as a sport doesn't really have the score by score type of commentary that we have here. It's always gonna be more about overall how many points did so and so score. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 02:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
::That is true to a certain extent.  I'm a baseball fan, I know the game but dont follow it as closely anymore.  I'd like to know the key storyline at a glance, like was it a domainant starting pitcher, a strong hitter, a late comeback, a controversial call, that was the key takeaway from the game.  If the game was 9–7, a reader should not have to read through all the scores to finally capture that essence.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 03:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
:For baseball, discussing the progression of a series without talking about game highlights wouldn't be much more enlightening than the one-line box score. I think those looking for a barebones understanding of what took place would be best served by adding prose to the "Summary" section to cover the game highlights. [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 03:28, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not tied to the game highlights having to stay in the individual games section, as oppose to the top level "Game summaries".  To break the stalemate, I propose that editors can feel free to add a summary to the individual game section, with no prejudice if BRD copyedits the individual highlight into "Game summaries".—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 05:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

On a related note, I like [[1988 World Series]]'s lead for featuring [[Kirk Gibson]] (limping HR) and [[Orel Hershiser]] (MVP) without going into sequential game-by-game details like the lead of FA [[2009 World Series]].  The downside with the 2009 lead style is that it gives equal weight to each game, instead of making editorial decisions on the defining highlights of the series.  Plus as I'm reading the 2009 lead, I'm mentally having to tally who is ahead in the series after each game.—[[User:Bagumba|Bagumba]] ([[User talk:Bagumba|talk]]) 05:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
:I think 1988 clearly has that one huge moment that overshadowed the rest of the series. 2009 didn't really have that. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:01, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

== Composite Line Score ==

What purpose does having this serve? It seems like just a weird combination of otherwise independent facts. [[Special:Contributions/151.141.81.91|151.141.81.91]] ([[User talk:151.141.81.91|talk]]) 03:23, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{Talk:2017 World Series/GA1}}

== "... officially known as ..."? ==

What constitutes the 2017 World Series' being known "officially known as the World Series presented by YouTube TV"? An [https://www.mlb.com/news/world-series-home-field-advantage-scenarios/c-258487354 MLB.com article] cited begins with the sentence "We are just a week away from the World Series presented by YouTube TV", which to me says that YouTube TV will sponsor the Series -- not that YouTube TV has become part of the official name of the Series. The citation for [https://variety.com/2017/digital/news/youtube-tv-world-series-2017-mlb-1202580423/ a ''Variety'' article] includes the same quotation ("We are just a week away from the World Series presented by YouTube TV"), but I cannot see that sentence in the ''Variety'' article. It does say, "YouTube TV will serve as the presenting sponsor of the baseball’s 2017 World Series ..." 

Does being the "presenting sponsor" equal being "officially known as ..." [[User:Teblick|Eddie Blick]] ([[User talk:Teblick|talk]]) 01:17, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2020 ==

{{edit semi-protected|2017 World Series|answered=y}}

Just a small request to update the page and keep current with news of the sign stealing scandal. Source is below, and the following is what I would ad as an addendum beneath everything else, but feel free to do whatever you like with it, and please edit it in case I did not properly cite the writer I wan trying to quote/paraphrase.

"While the Houston Astros season concluded with a World Series win, it was not without controversy. On January 13, 2020, the club fired their Manager A.J. Hinch, and their General Manager Jeff Luhnow, while being fined $5 million dollars for stealing signs from opposing teams using stadium cameras to gain an unfair advantage during the 2017 season. Despite being presented with documentary and testimonial evidence of his prior knowledge and consent of the activities, Luhnow would continue to deny any knowledge of his replay review staff decoding and transmitting signs to their dugout. No evidence linked Houston Astros owner Jim Crane to the activity, who was said to be "very upset" when he had found out."

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/13/houston-astros-baseball-cheating-punishment [[User:Bodgerton|Bodgerton]] ([[User talk:Bodgerton|talk]]) 22:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
:[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Adding something similar to that in the "Aftermath" section now. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 22:28, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
::An actual consequence of the World Series appearing in the "Aftermath" section! It's like the sighting of a blue ox! [[User:Isaacl|isaacl]] ([[User talk:Isaacl|talk]]) 00:39, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

The editors are being idiots.  It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the Astros cheated and the contest was not fair.  Ignoring this basic fact and having this Wikipedia entry 99% about a ridiculous contest that was a complete Sham is shear stupidity.  Stop editing legitimate updates!!  You are not the protectors of MLB owners interest.  Please go away and let the real owners of baseball tell the truth!  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/107.77.165.51|107.77.165.51]] ([[User talk:107.77.165.51#top|talk]]) 21:22, 15 January 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::The article is about the game.. there is a separate article about the scandal. As a Dodgers fan, I'm with you... I hate that they cheated to beat us... BUT as a wikipedian... it's our job to present factual information without personal bias. [[User:Spanneraol|Spanneraol]] ([[User talk:Spanneraol|talk]]) 21:24, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
:And how, pray tell, do you know for sure that the Astros would have lost if they hadn't cheated? You don't, because that's one of those things in life that will never be proven one way or the other. The Astros, unfortunately IMO, remain the 2017 World Series champions. &ndash;&nbsp;[[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 21:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
:: This article is really incomplete/misleading without some, brief mention of the Astros sign-stealing. [[User:Ebw343|Ebw343]] ([[User talk:Ebw343|talk]]) 03:05, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
:::The ''Impact and aftermath'' section covers it some. [[User:Larry Hockett|Larry Hockett]] ([[User talk:Larry Hockett|Talk]]) 03:10, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
::::You're right, sorry I missed that. I thought some editor had deleted it.[[User:Ebw343|Ebw343]] ([[User talk:Ebw343|talk]]) 03:35, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

== GA concerns ==

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the [[WP:GA?|good article criteria]] because there is uncited text in the article, including entire paragraphs. Is anyone willing to address this, or should this article go to [[WP:GAR]]? [[User:Z1720|Z1720]] ([[User talk:Z1720|talk]]) 15:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC)