Talk:Jan Grabowski

The page should be edited

Samsonowska - continuation

Wiez has published a text by Grabowski and further one by Samsonowska. [1] Xx236 (talk) 14:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Strange proportions

About 50% of the page describe his book The Hunt..., a subject of separate page. His other works aren't described in details.

Grabowski is a historian of Canada, of Poland and a propaganda writer/speaker. The three roles should be described here. Xx236 (talk) 14:25, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

The page is biased, it describes Grabowski as a historian of Poland only. His media/propaganda activities (200 000) should be isolated from his academic works. Grabowski is also a historian of Canada.Xx236 (talk) 09:30, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the length of the section of "The Hunt" and therefore trimmed the reception section. (I disagree with the assertions above - e.g. the 200,000 estimate is published scholarship). Icewhiz (talk) 05:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

That's not what Xx236 was writing about. He is fairly active on political views too, and this section should be expanded, rather than removing criticism of his highly controversial book.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Haaretz and the Center

Haaretz is an Isareli newspaper. How is it a reliable source regarding the Warsaw Center?

I'm unable to find anything about the Center in the Haaretz article.I'll remove the misquote. Xx236 (talk) 08:59, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Haaretz is about Grabowski's expertise. Haaretz is a top notch publication - a paper of record - and is definitely reliable for assertions on Grabowski's expertise. It is also reliable regarding Holocaust research - a topic it covers quite a bit (throughout Europe and elsewhere). Icewhiz (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Polish-Canadian professor of history at the University of Ottawa

What is Polish-Canadian professor of history? Are there such positions at Ottawa?Xx236 (talk) 09:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

200 000 repeated

The fake news 200 000 is mentioned twice in different places. Please unify or remove one instance.Xx236 (talk) 09:16, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

It's an estimate by the subject of the article - a quite notable estimate - there's nothing fake about Grabowski making and publishing this estimate (with others).Icewhiz (talk) 11:08, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski denies, now you admits he says it. It's difficult to lie, because sometimes one is catched.

It's not an estimate, it's a fake news pointing Datner.

The information is still in two places. Please remove one.Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree, Icewhiz-Grabowski has since withrdawn from claiming the figure 200,000 is correct and this should be noted in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Are false statements acceptable in this Wikipedia?

The statement There are no Polish bystanders in the Holocaust - is obviously false. Polish babies were bystanders.

Nazi language

Who were the Polish? Grabowski's father was Polish, does it make him a non-bystander? The Germans defined him as Jewish, do we accept Nazi German POV? If we accept Nazi language, it means that this Wikipedia is Nazi.Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Polish Blue Police

Polish Blue Police is an example of biased language typical for Grabowski. The police was German, the Germans dissolved the Polish state police in 1939 and created Polnische Polizei subordinated to local German SS and police commanders. In several Western countries their police was preserved after the surrender. Polnische Polizei is Nazi language, like Endlösung der Judenfrage or Jüdischer Wohnbezirk.Xx236 (talk) 09:36, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Night Continues: the Fates of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland

The book exists in Polish only, does the context explain that the English title is a translation?

The book contains many errors and manipulations, so yes, let's offer them to Polish schools to learn how to read between the lines.Xx236 (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Please avoid making unfounded assertions on this generally well regarded piece of scholarship. I added the Polish name in parenthetical. Icewhiz (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Please avoid attacking me. It's a Wikipedia, not a battle place.

There are at least 5 reviews pointing errors in the book and the center will answer in the future. When they answer, you will be able to repeat your story about scholarship, now stop.Xx236 (talk) 11:49, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Reception of the book

I find the level of detail here excessive since there's a separate article on the book: diff. This needs to be summarised better. --K.e.coffman (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes. And less cherry picked - e.g. almost all English and German language reviews have been somewhere between mildly positive to glowing. The length here is excessive.Icewhiz (talk) 15:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Historical views aren't based on ethnicity or language Icewhiz.I don't see much value in pinpointing ethnic background of reviews.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:19, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I haven't related to ethnicity. The Polish reviews mainly relate to the Polish version of the book - an earlier and different work (which had a more limited audience). The English reviews are (mostly) on the later English language book (larger audience, also won a significant prize). Some of the English reviews are by quite notable academics and are in top quality journals (which, as English has become lingua franca of science, tends to also be the top publications worldwide). We also have WP:NOENG which has us preferring English sources. The current selection of reviews is both overly long, and does not represent the reception of this work. For the reception and internal debate we have English sources relating to the debate in Poland - and we could stick to those English language sources.Icewhiz (talk) 23:05, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I see absolutely no reason why reviews in Poland which is the subject of the book should be excluded, in fact this is quite a shocking proposal, considering that many are by highly renown scholars, academics and historians. As per WP:NOENG: Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Since most of the reviews from Poland present aspects not covered in English based sources presented here, removing them you would disturb the NPOV --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Available sources in Polish are of higher quality and greater relevance - there is no need for lower quality English sources that often contain errors and wrong information. Furthermore, most of the Polish reviews are written by experts on the subject - and incorporate nuances and aspects not found in English sources.Removing Polish based sources would constitute severe breach of NPOV and limit geographical coverage of the subject.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:42, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: I removed the discourse that belongs in the article on the book; preserving here by providing this link. The level of detail is excessive, including details about calorie intake, 38 vs 90 Jews, etc. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:55, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I added a {{Further}} link to the section with detailed reviews in the article on the book: diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with your edit and I struggle to understand why deem as appropriate to remove all Polish sources and leaving only German and English ones.Especially important parts about false claims by Grabowski regarding Datner have been removed.I can understand trimming certain parts to make it more readible, but removing ad hoc all Polish sources seems not not only excessive but also POVish.It also severely undermines the quality of the article as they were written by top notch academicians and scholars--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not looking at this in terms of "Polish" or "English" sources, although I do note that Musial is "German-Polish". I also reduced the "English" source: diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

m not looking at this in terms of "Polish" Then why have you removed all of them? As a gesture of goodwill, could you restore them and I will trimm some of the information while leaving the essential stuff? Then you could see if you want to remove some more. The current removal really looks POV--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:36, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Could someone please complete this damaged sentence: "According to Bogdan Musial, a German-Polish historian writing in 2011, Hunt for the Jews failed to examine material that contradicted Grabowski's thesis, including Polish witness statements, German statements, and archives from the Polish resistance that."

I concur with MyMoloboaccount's above suggestion, in the interest of securing a neutral point of view in this article.

Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 08:24, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

There is no need for Polish language sourcing, as top-tier English language sources already address views in Poland. For instance, William W. Hagen in the Holocaust and Genocide Studies journal writes in 2018:

1. "Right-wing journalism in today’s Poland has harshly attacked Grabowski, charging that he aids Nazi-apologists in Germany by allegedly suggesting that the Holocaust was a joint German Polish enterprise. In response, Grabowski in 2016 won a libel suit against the nationalist-Catholic antisemitic website Fronda. His voice remains influential in current debates on the controversial amendment to the law governing the state-administered Institute of National Remembrance (IPN), which in February 2018 criminalized on pain of three years’ imprisonment allegations that “the Polish Nation or Polish State” participated in the Holocaust.
2. "Widespread cooperation in capturing Jews is not reducible to German coercion.... If it were, Polish nationalist objections to historians’ exposure of Polish Christian Holocaust complicity would be less vehement than those evidenced in rebuttals, both scholarly and journalistic, to Jan Gross’s explosive arguments in Neighbors (2001; Polish 2000) and subsequent writings, as well as to Grabowski’s own analysis as set forth in the 2011 Polish-language version of Hunt for the Jews."
3. "As in pre-Holocaust explanations for the incontrovertible existence of aggressive, violent, and criminal antisemites in Poland, so still today historians convinced of a fundamental national innocence identify murderers and collaborators as “scum” such as, regrettably, any society inevitably harbors. But that Poles—in Grabowski’s study, Polish villagers in Da˛browa Tarnowska county in former Galicia—should view protection of their Jewish neighbors from Nazi murder as sin and crime challenges national self-understanding in ways highly threatening for many Poles."

[2] Should amply represent the stance in Some Polish circles from a top-tier WP:SECONDARY source - you can't get higher quality than Hagen in Holocaust and Genocide Studies - which is far superior quality wise to other sources here and should be preferred per WP:NOENG. Icewhiz (talk) 13:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Poor Profesor Musiał, it seems that Hagen doesn't accrept his reasearch. Does however Musiał accept Hagen?

Hagen doesn't have any idea about the subject. There was no Da˛browa Tarnowska county during the war. Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Adding him wouldn't balance the article, we already have English based reviews.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I concur, that's why I created the article for the book. Let's keep reviews, controversies, and such there, and limit the content here to a short summary. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:21, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Revised 200,000?

This is sourced to a March 2018 media source in Poland, which due to the Holocaust law being in force at the time can not be considered reliable for Holocaust reporting (criminal culpability for "insulting the Polish nation" in regards to Holocaust complicity). That being said, subsequent sources in English continue to refer to the 200,000 - [3][4], as well as a direct quote from Grabowski from Nov 2018: "From among the approximately 250,000 Polish Jews who had escaped liquidations of the ghettos and who had fled, about 40,000 survived. We have thus more than 200,000 Jews who fled the liquidations and who did not survive until liberation. My findings show that in the overwhelming majority of cases, their Polish co-citizens were – directly through murder, or indirectly by denunciation – at the root of their deaths." UNIVERSITY OF OTTAWA HOLOCAUST HISTORIAN SUES POLISH GROUP FOR LIBEL, CJN, 22 November 2018. @MyMoloboaccount: - per WP:NOENG, please provide quotations + translations of said quotations (and if possible - a URL as well) for these two edits: [5][6]. Per later English RS sourcing (esp. the Nov 2018 quote of Grabowski himself) - the claim of retraction seems somewhat dubious. Icewhiz (talk) 13:27, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

That Grabowski contradicts himself in interviews is noted in some sources, I will gladly add them.If you believe media in Poland are in general unreliable, feel free to start an Wikipedia wide policy on the subject, as it was advised you many times before.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:ONUS on you to establish reliability in face of Poland criminalizing certain types of expression. Regardless of that per WP:NOENG - please provide quotations in Polish and translations to English of said quotations supporting your insertion to the article (which are present - seems to contradict later sources). Icewhiz (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

The 2018 Amendment to Poland's Act on the Institute of National Remembrance explicitly exempts, from prosecution, "research, discussion of history, or artistic activity." The argument that all research conducted in Poland is automatically suspect is specious, and is a red herring meant to prevent consideration of research conducted in Poland that is not to the liking of some parties outside Poland.

Nihil novi (talk) 00:58, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Most Holocaust researchers say this affects research. Furthermore media reports (the source here), are not exempt from the law.Icewhiz (talk) 05:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Name one example od the affecting. The story is a political tool to attack Poland in general and the currient government. As far many pieces of the reasearch contain fabricated numbers and manipulated quotes. Xx236 (talk) 07:49, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

MyMoloboaccount - the quotation you added does not support any revision by Grabowski, merely that when he spoke with Gazeta Wyborcza he was non-commital whether majority was 60 percent or 90 percent. It would seem that per the CJN quote from Nov 2018 he stands behind "overwhelming majority". Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

My findings show - the findings in "Hunt for the Jews" and "Dalej jest noc" are unreliable. In the "hunt" Grabowski underestimates the number of survivors and the number of helpers (including the number of the Righteous, which is a mastership). His findings in the recent book aren't explained. Academic data have to be verifiable. Neither his detailed findings nor the 200 000 fabrication aren't verifiable. He says - I'm the grat academician, you have to believe me. It's not academy, it's a cult. Xx236 (talk) 08:25, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski's different versions of the numbers, and fact that he admits they are just hypothesis that likely is going to be contradicted by other scholars is simply far too important to be removed.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:35, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Researchers make hypotheses and estimates. What you inserted is WP:OR not in the interview. Furthermore - if this important - where is the SECONDQRY coverage of this in English? Grabowski is fairly widely covered - this has not been picked up by any mainstream reporting as significant.Icewhiz (talk) 04:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

That may show the biases and slipshodness of some renowned scholars and mainstream publications outside Poland.

Nihil novi (talk) 05:02, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

fringe far right organization

• Sources, please regarding "fringe far right organization".
• Both sides of the case should be described, not "goog Grabowski" against "evil right".
• Mathematics isn't "left" or "right". If Grabowski formulates fringe theories using false numbers, he is "fringe", not his opponents.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

  Grabowski is an accepted mainstream (as it is defined in most of the world) Holocaust scholar. As for the league - per Minkner, Kamil. "Polish contemporary art to the anti-semitism of Poles and its political significance." Review of Nationalities 6.1 (2016): 195-221. it is one of the "full-of-fears fundamentalist" organizations that fought against the Oscar winning Ida (film) - a "right-wing organization" that makes various public petitions.Icewhiz (talk) 08:46, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Many Jewish organisatiojns do exactly the same. But they are reliable, beacase they aren't Polish.

"Ida" is ahistorical, so many Polish people can see rewriting of history rather than a piece of art. As far noone dared to rewrite the history of the Holocaust the way Polish history is rewritten. Even a realistic film about Litzmannstadt ghetto would be impossible.Xx236 (talk) 09:39, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

A Jewish historian is against "Ida". https://natemat.pl/80843,ida-pelna-antysemickich-stereotypow Xx236 (talk) 09:42, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

That's a blog - not a reliable source. And Ida is off-topic here - I brought a source for the league (Ida was incidentally one of the prior kerfuffles that elicited commentary on the league). Icewhiz (talk) 09:58, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

First you mention "Ida", next the subject is off topic. Please don't open problems you don't know. Helena Datner has criticised Ida in Gazeta Wyborcza and Krytyka Polityczna, so you unreliable blog doesn't work.Xx236 (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

"Right wing organization" (which they arguably are) is not the same as "far right organization". Regardless, unless something comes out of the lawsuit, the info is WP:UNDUE overall.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:56, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski has been accused by several historians of manipulating numbers and quotations. His moral blackmail makes any discussion difficult. https://www.wiez.pl/czasopismo/;s,czasopismo_szczegoly,id,563,art,15550 Xx236 (talk) 13:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Dąbrowa Tarnowska County

I have removed false link. Please verify what do you link.

I have added alleged because there was no such German county. The real power was the Kreishauptmannschaft Tarnow.Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Are opinions by Grabowski notable?

Any person described in this Wikipedia has thousands of opinions about food, beverages, President Trump and climate. We select only notable opinions. Grabowski isn't competent to criticize the Polish government. The government is obviously democartic, it has been elected and is still supported by many, comparing to eg. Mr Macron, who is unpopular in France. The hate speach is typical for Grabowski. Grabowski is described here as a historian, not as a Kardashyan, so his media excesses aren't notable. The biography ignores many aspects of his work. Xx236 (talk) 08:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Please strike the un-sourced assertion above. Hard to argue a BLP's position are undue on a BLP's own bio page - particularly when said positions are widely covered and discussed by reliable sources. Icewhiz (talk) 08:41, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I;m sorry, but you totally ignore my logical position and claim that trash is notable, which is absurd. The world doesn't care what Grabowski thinks about Kaczynski. Grabowski is an alleged historian, not a politician, Kaczynski is a politician. Similarly Kaczynski's or Morawiecki's opinions about Grabowski or about the Holocaust don't deserve to be remebered. If someone quotes Grabowski as a source about democracy in Poland, so he is an idiot. It's simple - the government doens't like Grabowski, so it's undemocratic, fascist. If th enext government will distinguish Grabowski - the government will be democratic and progressive. It's a world of children in a sandbox, not of adult people. Protests agisnts the government have been sighned by hundreds of professors. Wiil you include such fact in hundreds of BLPs? In 10 years noone will care about 2016 government of Poland. Summarizing - you hate Poland and Polish people so you collect any filth to throw on Poland. Xx236 (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

It's more than just WP:BLP: Academics are expected to apply their studies to policy questions, and would abdicate their responsibility if they didn't. As a major scholar in his field, Grabowski's opinion is WP:DUE not only in his bio, but on related articles as well, like those on commemoration and historiography of the Holocaust. François Robere (talk) 12:03, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

If a Pole criticizes a Jew or Isreal, it's antisemitism, can't be published. If Poland is criticized in a childish way, it's notable, academic. Xx236 (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)