Talk:DiDi: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Line 50: Line 50:
== Requested move 26 August 2018 ==
== Requested move 26 August 2018 ==


<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
{{requested move/dated|Didi Chuxing}}
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''

The result of the move request was: '''Moved''' to [[DiDi]]. There is no perfect answer here, but my reading is consensus prefers the short stylized '''DiDi''' over the (unnecessarily) disambiguated current title. I don't see consensus to move to the longer '''Didi Chuxing''' which does appear to refer to only the part of the business in China. {{nac}} [[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 01:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
----


[[:DiDi (company)]] → {{no redirect|Didi Chuxing}} – Revert bad move, flawed per above using the stylised ([[WP:OFFICIALNAMES]]) version in the face of [[WP:COMMONNAME]], which is against policy as not used in any source mentioned above. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 17:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC) <small>--'''''Relisting.''''' [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)</small>
[[:DiDi (company)]] → {{no redirect|Didi Chuxing}} – Revert bad move, flawed per above using the stylised ([[WP:OFFICIALNAMES]]) version in the face of [[WP:COMMONNAME]], which is against policy as not used in any source mentioned above. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 17:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC) <small>--'''''Relisting.''''' [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] ([[User talk:Andrewa|talk]]) 20:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)</small>
Line 110: Line 115:


::Again, the problem here is that Didi and Didi Chuxing are not used interchangeably: the first is generally used in international markets, while the latter is generally used for the Chinese market. --[[User:Ita140188|Ita140188]] ([[User talk:Ita140188|talk]]) 10:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
::Again, the problem here is that Didi and Didi Chuxing are not used interchangeably: the first is generally used in international markets, while the latter is generally used for the Chinese market. --[[User:Ita140188|Ita140188]] ([[User talk:Ita140188|talk]]) 10:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

Revision as of 01:18, 11 September 2018

Merger of Didi Dache

  1. I propose merging Didi Dache into Didi Kuaidi. Since the company merged with Kuaidi Dache, there's no need for a seperate article on Didi Dache.--Cattus talk 18:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agreed Mk17b (talk) 20:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree too. --Deansfa (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I agree this too. --Shwangtianyuan Talk Here 04:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Agreed. MethaneK (talk) 08:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Agree --Baptisteg (talk) 04:53, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disagree. The histories don't overlap until the merger, and it would be hard to combine the Didi Dache and Didi Kuaidi histories. Benji the Pen (talk) 16:04, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge: the histories may be distinct prior to the merge, but that is easily dealt with by dividing a history sections with subheadings. The pages are small enough to easily be accommodated in one page. Klbrain (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to DiDi (company), per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Didi Chuxing → DiDi (service) – Per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:TRANSLITERATE and WP:TITLETM. Plus, the service is now using DiDi as its name for international markets. See its official English website, which calls itself by just DiDi. Its app in the App Store and Play Store is also just DiDi for international markets. Didi Chuxing is undoubtedly a good name, but Chuxing is a hard to understand for English readers as it is Chinese pinyin. Welcome for discussion. Cheers. Wefk423 (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Didi (company), even though this seems to fail WP:NATURAL. But Amazon.com was moved to Amazon (company) not long ago. Timmyshin (talk) 17:05, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Timmyshin: Good suggestion, but just to make sure: It's Didi (company) or DiDi (company)? Cheers –Wefk423 (talk) 19:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Names

The BBC and NYT have been using the name Didi Chuxing for two years [2] [3] so I added it to the altenative names. NYT has some use of just Didi but neither use the stylised DiDi, which the article is currently titled. It seems the WP:COMMONNAME may be Didi Chuxing (stylised DiDi). Widefox; talk 11:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Widefox: As explained above in the move discussion, Didi Chuxing is a Chinese pinyin of the company's native name 滴滴出行. Per WP:TRANSLITERATE, simply DiDi would be the best option for common name (or the article title) as it will be easier for English readers here in Wikipedia. I appreciate your edit on adding it into the article lead. Cheers! –Wefk423 (talk) 16:12, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wefk423: What's that got to do with COMMONNAME? Sources are using Didi Chuxing! (BTW TRANSLITERATE also says ...English language reliable sources...) . The move discussion above isn't very enlightening or numerous. Widefox; talk 17:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also to note is WP:OFFICIALNAMES Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources (emphasis own) Ping others User:Timmyshin User:Ita140188 Widefox; talk 17:15, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Widefox: But from what I have searched, reliable sources such as South China Morning Post, Reuters, CNBC, Financial Times, TechCrunch, The Verge, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Engagdet, etc... uses "DiDi" or "Didi" in the article (at least in the title). –Wefk423 (talk) 17:19, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, the full name should never have been removed as an alternative name, secondly e.g. TechCrunch uses "Didi Chuxing" as the name in the body, and in the company profile linked [4], but yes some shorten to "Didi" but not one uses "DiDi" , and WSJ has full name "Didi Chuxing Technology Co.". As such, the move discussion above is flawed as none of the sources use "DiDi" which is the stylised version, and would need consensus to go against the COMMONNAME. It's a mess. Widefox; talk 17:26, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I want to clarify that I do not oppose adding back the alternative name. In the beginning, I have expressed my apprecitation (I appreciate your edit on adding it into the article lead. Cheers!). You also mentioned WSJ has used their full, official name "Didi Chuxing Technology Co.", but that does not mean it could qualify as a WP:COMMONNAME reason. As for the company profile, I believe it refers to the company in China, rather than the company that handles their international services. If you open their international website (https://www.didiglobal.com), it will see that the official company name is Beijing Xiaoju Technology Co, Ltd. –Wefk423 (talk) 17:46, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I should point out that Didi also provides services in non-Asian countries (Mexico, Australia, etc. see article), and I'm not sure if it's known as "Didi Chuxing" in those countries? However I don't object to Didi Chuxing because it meets WP:NATURAL. Timmyshin (talk) 17:23, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Timmyshin: After some research, I think it is marketed as just "DiDi". Take Austrailia as an example, their website [5] and mobile app [6] uses DiDi. Also note that the developer of the mobile app is DIDI MOBILITY INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY PTE. LTD. I personally think that the company has a lot of different subsidiaries to handles different markets. ABC News (Austrailia) also uses just "Didi" in their whole article. [7] Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 18:21, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Marketing is somewhat irrelevant, again see WP:OFFICIALNAMES While common names are generally preferred over official names as article titles (and the app, subsids, and other irrelevancies are not the company), and COMMONNAMES policy. See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies) . Widefox; talk 00:09, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to DiDi. There is no perfect answer here, but my reading is consensus prefers the short stylized DiDi over the (unnecessarily) disambiguated current title. I don't see consensus to move to the longer Didi Chuxing which does appear to refer to only the part of the business in China. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 01:17, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]


DiDi (company) → Didi Chuxing – Revert bad move, flawed per above using the stylised (WP:OFFICIALNAMES) version in the face of WP:COMMONNAME, which is against policy as not used in any source mentioned above. Widefox; talk 17:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 20:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Summary
  1. Camelcase should not be used as it fails MOS:CAMELCASE - it is not dominant in sources (see below)
    • Even the proponent of the flawed previous move claims (below) the lowercase is the commonname, invalidating the previous (bad) move rational which this just reverts.
  2. So, as lowercase Didi is ambiguous disambiguation is needed so Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies) states Whenever possible, common usage therefore "Didi Chuxing" is preferred for disambiguation
  3. Revert the bad move back to the title "Didi Chuxing"
Oppose. As mentioned above, I can agree on the non-stylized Didi (company) but not Didi Chuxing. Didi Chuxing is a Chinese pinyin name for Chinese markets. Other international markets uses "DiDi", as seen from their official website [8] and mobile apps [9][10]. Please also note that the sources provided above (South China Morning Post, Reuters, CNBC, Financial Times, TechCrunch, The Verge, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Engagdet) uses Didi in the title (common name) while most article body uses Didi Chuxing to refer to the service provided in Mainland China. –Wefk423 (talk) 17:41, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You agree Didi Chuxing is the most common in RS? BBC, NYT etc. We go by policy WP:COMMONNAME, see WP:OFFICIALNAMES for the overemphasis you're putting on official style and title. This is just the revert of a bad move, based on official styling rather than policy, which you're still sticking to, despite this being clearcut. Widefox; talk 18:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going by policy too. You used BBC and NYT as source, while I used SCMP, Reuters, CNBC, FT, TC, The Verge, WSJ, NYT, Engagdet, etc to show that they have used Didi in their title, while using Didi Chuxing in the body to refer to the Chinese service, not international services. Please note that DiDi provides services in markets such as Hong Kong, Austrailia and Mexico. These regions uses Didi as common name. Plus, I did not overemphase the official style and title, I have been stating the common name of the service the whole time. It was you that stated the official name ... and WSJ has full name "Didi Chuxing Technology Co.". Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
None of these sources use "DiDi", correct? So what part of that move is per policy? Your claim is "Didi" as the commonname, so why move to "DiDi"? Confused.
We tend to use gold standard RS like BBC, NYT which use "Didi Chuxing" for the company name (and sometimes use "Didi" for short, BBC does not though), which this is the topic, correct? You seem to be conflating service name with company name. Just as reference, the Uber titled article has Uber Technologies Inc. (doing business as Uber), Amazon (company) Amazon.com, Inc., doing business as Amazon (ie with trade name). The apps, and geographically named services are not to be conflated. This is English WP too. Widefox; talk 21:39, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I find it funny that you are trying to put the blame on me on the requested move. Yes, considering the sources we have now, the current common name is Didi instead of DiDi. But please do understand that the move was a request and proposal for discussion. The result of such move was based on consensus. Back to service and company name - We don't know if "Didi Chuxing Technology Co." is really the official company name. Like I mentioned, If you open their international website (https://www.didiglobal.com), it will see that the official company name is Beijing Xiaoju Technology Co, Ltd. The company name you mentioned from WSJ is the one handling Chinese markets, we are not sure whether it is the parent company of all services. The situation is different than the companies you gave (Amazon and Uber), as DiDi has two different common names for different markets. –Wefk423 (talk) 12:12, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So we agree the move wasn't per WP:COMMONNAME. Bad moves should be reverted. It is that simple. (I suggest that if you don't know the name of the company, then you should refrain from moving the company to a different name) Widefox; talk 15:58, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bad moves should be reverted. It is that simple. No, it's not. You kept emphasising that it was a bad move and it should be reverted to Didi Chuxing, but me and several editors have repeatedly pointed out that the name that appeared on the sources you listed here (Didi Chuxing) refers only to the service in Mainland China, and not the other numbers of market. Those sources used Didi in the title for a reason, it's been used as common name, not "sometimes use "Didi" for short". Didi Chuxing is undoubtedly not a suitable name for a service that is available in different countries with a different name. For overseas countries that always used DiDi as common name to refer to the service, using Didi Chuxing is confusing to them. Is this an article only referring to the service in China, and not their hometown or country? –Wefk423 (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that if you don't know the name of the company, then you should refrain from moving the company to a different name I'm here to once again make it clear to you. The move request was a proposal for discussion, and was moved per consensus. You make it seem like I have moved the article without making any discussion. Please refrain from persistently putting the blame of "bad move" to me. I'm asking nicely. –Wefk423 (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WSJ has full name "Didi Chuxing Technology Co.", BBC only uses "Didi Chuxing". You may claim to know better, but I do not. It is good that we go by policy and guideline and not votes, then isn't it. Widefox; talk 17:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose From what I understand, Didi Chuxing is used specifically for the Chinese service, while Didi is generally recognized as the service worldwide. Since the article is general, Didi is a better term to refer to the service worldwide. --Ita140188 (talk) 03:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That conflates the service with the company (the company is the subject here), which is called Didi Chuxing Technology Co., Didi Chuxing for short, or Didi for ambiguously short, etc . Widefox; talk 15:49, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are using one of their companies' official name "Didi Chuxing Technology Co." as evidence to support using Didi Chuxing would be the best option, but I have, and once again, replied saying that The company name you mentioned from WSJ is the one handling Chinese markets, we are not sure whether it is the parent company of all services.. Also, you mentioned Didi Chuxing for short, or Didi for ambiguously short. No. Didi Chuxing is for China markets, DiDi is for all international markets. It has been mentioned by me and other editors many times. –Wefk423 (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, it literally doesn't matter what you or I think, COMMONNAME is clear we go by WP:RS. None uses "DiDi" (camelcase). Period. Even the heavily DiDi branded WP:primary source (non-independent) used by a proponent here http://www.didi-labs.com/#about has "ABOUT DIDI CHUXING". ) Widefox; talk 17:02, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is a disambiguation issue, so the relevant guideline is Wikipedia:Disambiguation, which states, Natural disambiguation that is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation. In this case, the natural disambiguation for this article is the company's official name, "Didi Chuxing", which is preferable to "Didi (company)". The company may have chosen to use the "DiDi" name in isolation for their international marketing, but "Didi Chuxing" remains the better title for this article. Λυδαcιτγ 08:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does not need disambiguation. DiDi is currently a red link. --Ita140188 (talk) 08:28, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, search on Google for "didi" ride service -chuxing gives 3 million results [11], while "didi chuxing" ride service gives only 378,000 results [12] --Ita140188 (talk) 08:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting using DiDi as the article title? Λυδαcιτγ 08:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If the addition of company in brackets is a problem, yes, I think DiDi is better than Didi Chuxing, which is less commonly used and generally refers only to the Chinese service. --Ita140188 (talk) 09:15, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree using DiDi rather than Didi Chuxing if DiDi (company) fail WP:NATURAL. –Wefk423 (talk) 12:12, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Again this conflates the service with the company name. All this OR is moot - we use RS for COMMONNAME rather than Google hits (and that Google search conflates the previous companies and other issues, e.g. "didi chuxing" gets > 1 million hits including BBC, https://www.didiglobal.com/ "Didi Chuxing", https://news.sky.com, "Didi Chuxing | Crunchbase", https://www.engadget.com, https://gizmodo.com, https://www.reuters.com, Didi Chuxing (@DidiChuxing) | Twitter, Didi Chuxing - Home | Facebook, www.didi-labs.com/ "Didi Chuxing", Didi Chuxing | South China Morning Post, https://www.linkedin.com/company/滴滴 "Didi Chuxing", Didi Chuxing - CB Insights, itv.com, time.com), BBC and other gold standards are clear. Widefox; talk 15:49, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, disambiguation wise natural disambiguation prefers the longer variant in this case. Widefox; talk 15:49, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Widefox but I don't agree with your points. --Ita140188 (talk) 15:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ita140188 This isn't a vote, the weight of argument based on policy matters, so stating "don't agree" has no weight unless it is reasoned. Widefox; talk 15:56, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't voting, I was saying that I don't think your replies invalidate my points. --Ita140188 (talk) 16:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1. camelcase should not be used as it fails MOS:CAMELCASE (see below), 2. Didi is ambiguous so disambiguation is needed so Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies) states Whenever possible, common usage therefore "Didi Chuxing" is preferred for disambiguation) 3. even the bad move proponent (above) claims the lowercase is the commonname, invalidating the bad move rational. Widefox; talk 16:48, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Either you are saying that this is an issue of disambiguation, or it is a commonname issue. If the issue is disambiguation, per WP:NCDAB DiDi would be acceptable rather than Didi (company). --Ita140188 (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
even the bad move proponent (above) claims the lowercase is the commonname, invalidating the bad move rational ?? That does not mean that Didi Chuxing is suitable. It is not the common name and MOS:CAMELCASE also stated Trademarks in "CamelCase" are a judgment call; the style may be used where it reflects general usage and makes the trademark more readable., this is why we have discussed the possiblity of moving to DiDi, the trademark name from DiDi. –Wefk423 (talk) 16:57, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ita140188 - that's a false dichotomy - both are relevant per policy/guideline. You agree both apply here?
Wefk423 - what we are discussing here is undoing a bad move, which you agree was not the COMMONNAME per policy (due to camelcase not being in any source above). MOS:CAMELCASE says to follow general usage not editors desire. Usage in RS is clear = not used. Period. Widefox; talk 17:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it wasn't a request to undo a bad move. DiDi is not the COMMONNAME, yes I agree on you. But like I said, Didi Chuxing has several issues (explained above by me and serveral editors). Undo a bad move is cool, but I just don't think Didi Chuxing is the best option here. Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 17:25, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When an edit is bad, we revert it. This goes directly against CAMELCASE, so should be reverted just on that alone. The original title matches the history DiDi (company)#Didi Chuxing (from September 2015). Widefox; talk 17:34, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To invoke WP:COMMONNAME you still have to demonstrate that Didi Chuxing is more common and recognizable than Didi alone --Ita140188 (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I'm only contesting a bad edit (move) which even the proponent states is not the COMMONNAME. There's a lot of merit to mentioning the stylised "DiDi" in the article as it's the common conglomerate branding / marketing thread / trade name (as it is currently mentioned), but to name and style the whole topic as such is directly against policy and guideline as quoted. Widefox; talk 16:54, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NATURAL and WP:IDENTITY. Didi Chuxing is the official name of the company, and the natural disambiguation. -Zanhe (talk) 00:21, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to DiDi the current title is obviously supposed to go, but it does appear that Didi Chuxing is specific to the Chinese market. Simonm223 (talk) 13:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Didi Chuxing is the name of the company and how it's primarily known as in sources. feminist (talk) 23:49, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

If I were to close this now, I'd need to dscard much (perhaps most) of the above for various reasons... blatantly contrary to policy, personal opinion only, based on primary sources (see also the essay at wp:official names for more on that). Suggest the supporters in particular might try to clarify the reasons for their support.

And as part of this, is the stylised DiDi and the proposed natural disambiguation of Didi really the best possible proposal? Neither of these questions have been well addressed above.

That latest !vote, for example, appeals to WP:IDENTITY, presumably believing that it isn't clear which is most used (see the link they gave). That claim needs justification; Just name-dropping the MOS means nothing. In fact, none of their four arguments stand up to scrutiny, so I'd simply discard that !vote, and several others. Andrewa (talk) 21:44, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrewa: Just saw this. Quoting from WP:NCDAB, When there is another term (such as Apartment instead of Flat) or more complete name (such as English language instead of English) that is unambiguous, commonly used in English (even without being the most common term), and equally clear, that term is typically the best to use. ... Natural disambiguation that is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation. "Didi Chuxing" is a commonly used, unambiguous, and more complete name for the company. Since natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical, we should use it instead of "Didi (company)". Λυδαcιτγ 06:56, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the problem here is that Didi and Didi Chuxing are not used interchangeably: the first is generally used in international markets, while the latter is generally used for the Chinese market. --Ita140188 (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:DiDi&oldid=858997525"