Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Argentine, not Argentinian

Wikipedia:Argentine, not Argentinian

Wikipedia:Argentine, not Argentinian (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Wikipedia is not a prescriptivist encyclopaedia. This essay makes no cogent argument that "Argentine", contra "Argentinian", is the "correct" demonym. WP:ESSAY does not excuse the promulgation of ill-informed opinions or blind prejudice - unless, of course, the page is tagged as "humorous". Alakzi (talk) 11:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Keep certainly the essay could be improved, but when I read the reason above, I thought this MFD page was being proposed for deletion! Essays can prescribe things, and we can choose to ignore or accept it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
• Keep. I don't see a cogent argument for deletion either – Wikipedia is obviously prescriptivist in its writing (as are all reference works), and users are free to be as prescriptivist as they wish in non-article space. If you don't like it, why don't you write Wikipedia:Argentinian, not Argentine, and maybe eradicate some of that "blind prejudice" you're talking about. IgnorantArmies (talk) 12:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not prescriptivist in its writing; it borrows accepted writing standards. Whether those standards may arise from prescriptivism is a different matter altogether. This essay would've been acceptable if reputable sources asserted that "Argentinian" is non-standard; they do not. It is intellectually moral that unsubstantiated advice is removed from public light. I've no interest in writing a counter-essay - and nor have I ever claimed that either form is superior. Alakzi (talk) 13:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I think you're misunderstanding linguistic prescriptivism. Having a manual of style is a far cry from saying that a particular word is "correct". -- Irn (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
• Keep: "This essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. Essays are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints." That text should clarify the status of the page. It makes a point about the usage of a pair of terms, but it is a point that may be accepted or ignored, as this is not part of the manual of style. In fact, we do have essays that propose to do an action and other essays that propose to do the polar opposite action, such as Wikipedia:A navbox on every page and Wikipedia:Not everything needs a navbox, or Wikipedia:Call a spade a spade and Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade. By the way, there was a similar discussion some months ago at Wikipedia talk:Argentine, not Argentinian#Requested move (or, actually, a "move war" that I settled starting that discussion). Cambalachero (talk) 13:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • What an obtuse misreading of WP:ESSAY. Of course user essays should be minimally informed. The issue is not with the popularity of the viewpoint, but whether any effort has been made to validate that viewpoint. Alakzi (talk) 13:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
    • So, it all comes down to "Delete this essay because I don't agree with it". Cambalachero (talk) 15:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
      • I don't agree with it, but that's besides the point. The author authoritatively states that "Argentine" is the only correct demonym and adjective. This is clearly not the case, as "Argentinian" enjoys widespread usage, both in literature and the media, and it is found in reputable dictionaries of the English language, such as the OED. If the essay were to be rewritten to state that "Argentine" is more common, and should therefore be preferred, that would be fine; but it flies in the face of our core mission to be spreading what is essentially a falsehood. Alakzi (talk) 16:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
• Keep – "Argentine" is the standard form. The opinion is not "ill-formed", but is supported by most major style guides and etymological history. 14:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • There are literally thousands of English loans which have been altered to conform with English-language grammatical and phonological norms and could be said to be etymologically "incorrect". A cursory Google search for "style guide Argentine" has not returned any relevant results. Alakzi (talk) 16:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
• Delete: I really don't like this essay, and I really don't like the way its essay status allows it to avoid scrutiny and insulates it from criticism for being poorly-sourced and poorly-argued. (Check the page history and the talk: page to see how attempts at improving it are dealt with.) While I recognize that WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument in a deletion discussion, the other side is little more than WP:ILIKEIT. (I don't see any cogent argument in favor of keeping it.) I think part of the problem is that there basicaly are no guidelines for inclusion regarding essays. I would like to see this essay deleted, but I don't know that policy supports that position because I don't see any clear guidelines on what constitutes an appropriate essay. At the very least, I do think this essay should be moved to something along the lines of "Argentine, Argentinian, or Argentinean", which would better reflect its contentiousness and allow for arguments to made and challenged. -- Irn (talk) 17:14, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing to challenge. The purpose of the essay is to express the opinion that "Argentine" should be preferred, as it should, and as it is by style guides. RGloucester — ☎ 17:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If that were true, I might concede. However, that's not the case. An opinion would be arguing that Argentine is more elegant or a better translation, not that it's the correct demonym. Calling it "correct" is not an opinion; it's a statement of fact, and it's wrong. (That's not how English works.) If it were correct, there would be no need to write an essay arguing in favor of it. -- Irn (talk) 19:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

What is a "correct" is a matter of opinion, not of truth. RGloucester — ☎ 20:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It is a matter of collective opinion. The word is used by millions and is found in leading dictionaries; it cannot objectively be "incorrect". Alakzi (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no such thing as objectivity. Anyway, many words are used that should not be used. "Argentinian" is one of them. RGloucester — ☎ 20:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• Keep There are very few reasos to outright delete an essay. If it is an attack page, if it blatantly misrepresents policy, or if it is simply a ball of lies, then sure, delete it. If it is the creation of a sole user and clearly represents only that user, who gaurds it against any changes by others it is suitable to force userfication instead of having it in project space. None of thse seem to apply here. Essays are for exactly this, expressing opinions. They serve a purpose in that if the matter keeps coming up again and again one need not endlessly repeat their arguments, they can simply refer to the essay which explains them in detail already. Whether we agree with a particular essay or not is simply not relevant. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that I would call it "a ball of lies", but it is rife with factual errors. For example, "Argentina" is, in fact, a noun in Spanish. (It's also an adjective. It depends on the use.) Referring to the country as "la Argentina" doesn't make "Argentina" an adjective. (That argument makes absolutely no sense because articles modify nouns.) Even if that were the case, Argentinians do refer to Argentina as a noun (see, for example, "No llores por mí, Argentina"). Further, even if that argument were valid, there's nothing redundant about "Argentinian" because English use is not determined by the Spanish. And "Argentinian" did not enter English at the end of the 20th century but rather the middle of the 19th century. -- Irn (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The word may have "existed" in the 19th century, but it was not common usage and was extremely rare until the late 20th century. "Argentina" is an adjective in Spanish, which existed before the country. Whilst the word "Argentina" can now be used as if it were a noun, this usage is merely a colloquial dropping of the nouns that are modified by the adjective "Argentina", i.e. tierra or república. RGloucester — ☎ 20:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)