Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 September 19

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September 19

This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on September 19, 2014.

Diego Mendez

• Diego Mendez → Christopher Columbus (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

This isn't an easy call, but I think a reader would be better served with search results here. A Diego Méndez indeed was part of Columbus's fourth voyage, but he's a pretty minor figure, only mentioned once on the Columbus article. See the search results. We just really don't have enough to say about this guy to merit a redirect. --BDD (talk) 18:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Keep. BDD: You are impressively fastidious to raise such a question, but you worry too much. If the current mention of Diego Mendez is all that Wikipedia has, then the redirect is critical to help readers use what there is. The alternative is to write a self-standing article on Diego Mendez. Embedding his information into the article on Columbus and providing a redirect for individuals who seek information on Mendez alone is the best compromise, the best alternative. Rammer (talk) 19:10, 19 September 2014 (UTC) Moved from Diego Mendez. --BDD (talk) 19:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Rammer, part of the problem here is that there are other people by this name. Is this one the most notable? Hard to say, though it's certainly possible. Columbus would still be high on the search results, perhaps even still first, so I don't think deletion would be overly burdensome to readers searching for that Mendez, while helping those who are searching for another. --BDD (talk) 19:15, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete per BDD. Hinders search. Surely a fairly common name? Si Trew (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:22, 20 September 2014‎

Alternative. BDD and Si Trew: Your arguments are rational and cogent, but if you have other individuals in mind besides this particular Diego Mendez, perhaps the fitting resolution is to create a disambiguation page. But I continue to oppose total elimination of the redirect. That would not help Wikipedia be useful to researchers. This particular Diego Mendez's eruption in world history at a critical point with little known of him does not occasion throwing the baby redirect out with the bath. Rammer (talk) 20:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

But if he is not notable (as indicated by not having an article) then that engineer is hoist by his own petard. For me, on WP search I can't get past this redirect to search properly whichever way I try, but a gooo, um, well-known search engine brings me up a character from Grand Theft Auto. (Sometimes Méndez with stress mark on first E, sometimes not; we don't have Diego Méndez in EN:WP but that is easily fixed if consensus is keep). Si Trew (talk) 21:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Columbus - The First Spice Seeker

• Columbus - The First Spice Seeker → Christopher Columbus (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

This bizarre neologism started life as a brief essay almost ten years ago. There's a brief explanation at Talk:Christopher Columbus/Archive 3#Spices of what happened. As it stands, it's an unlikely search term and misleading, suggesting, perhaps, a book by this name. But searching "the first spice seeker" -wikipedia indicates that this phrase is not used elsewhere (the few results are pretty clearly still Wikipedia mirrors or derivatives), and that's without even specifically searching for Columbus. BDD (talk) 18:44, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Delete. Since patently Columbus was not the first spice seeker – he just wanted a shortcut and completely failed to find it, as he failed in almost everything he tried – then in the absence of it being the name of a book or film it is misleading. Si Trew (talk) 04:18, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Southeastern Ukraine

• Southeastern Ukraine → Novorossiya (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ]
• South-East Ukraine → Novorossiya (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

I have undone this redirect of the article [1]. That is an extremely POV redirect, which appears motivated by the ongoing crisis in Ukraine and seeks to give some historical legitimacy to the Russian backed separatist Federal State of Novorossiya. The term "Novorossiya" itself was invented as a propaganda term in the late 18th century. Redirecting "South-East Ukraine" to "Novorossiya" is like redirecting "Southeastern United States" to Confederate States of America (especially if the South was in midst of another separatist rebellion) or redirecting "Southeastern Poland" to Third Reich. It's a form of irredentism. Hence, for sake of actual consensus seeking (rather than "fly under the radar redirect proposal than no one's been informed about") I am reopening this discussion. *IF* we do redirect South-East Ukraine to anything, then the appropriate article would be Wild Fields, as that is the actual historical name of the region. Although I actually don't see a need for that either. Redirecting it to "Ukraine" until someone wants to write a geographic article about its South-East part is sufficient for now.  Volunteer Marek  15:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• As a procedural matter, I've restored these to point to Novorossiya, which was decided upon through consensus by a recent RfD. As a matter of substance, at least for now, I have no opinion as to where these should point. --BDD (talk) 15:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

To call that discussion "Consensus" is a big stretch. For example, on that very page I undid the original attempt at the POV redirect [2]. Yet I was never notified of this discussion. The discussion involved essentially two editors (plus one editor who struck their comment), one of whom was exactly the person who's tried to make this into a POV redirect in the first place. This wasn't "Consensus", this was "sneak it in quick under the radar".

At some point I used to hope that admins who close these kind of discussions would have enough content-relevant background knowledge to be able to ascertain the quality of the discussion or the policy basis of the proposal. After all, that is exactly what policy tells us - Consensus is not a vote and a closing admin should evaluate the policy reasons stated. Since this, at least to me, is just such a blatant attempt at POV pushing, as a closing admin, you should've known better. And now there's a mess to clean up and undo. Volunteer Marek  17:03, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Consensus isn't a vote, true, but every participant in that discussion, which ran over a month, agreed on that outcome, except for the nominator, who stayed silent after the initial nomination where he expressed uncertainty. Sure, there weren't many participants, so it's fine to have another discussion, but there was nothing illegitimate about the outcome there. I'm not going to looking for evidence of POV pushing before anyone has even brought it up.

And quite frankly, the only sense in which I "should've known better" would have been to not get near any discussion related to Eastern Europe, which are pretty consistently lightning rods for partisan debates. I thought I had found one that was otherwise—so, yes, I should've known better. --BDD (talk) 18:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, yes. It helps to actually know something minimal about a subject when closing a particular discussion. Otherwise we get embarrassing results like this. Volunteer Marek  04:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete. The redirect Southeastern Ukraine → Novorossiya is as bizarre as a redirect from Southern Spain → Hispania Baetica. Novorossiya is an article about an historic region, like Hispania Baetica. I've read the original discussion and I don't think there were sufficient participants to form any consensus on such a controversial redirect. --Nug (talk) 23:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Keep It's functional and historic. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 03:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. "Bizarre" and "absurd" are about the right words to describe this redirect. That and extremely biased. Volunteer Marek  04:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Vehement delete – Absurd redirect. Firstly, this is not an area that exists. The delineations are Southern Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, &c. There is no "southeastern Ukraine", outside the purely geographical compass directions. What's more, redirecting this to "Novorossiya" (New Russia) makes absolutely zero sense. This is not a name that is used in modern Ukraine, not a region that has any significance or currency in Ukraine at all. Whether this anachronistic region covers "southeastern Ukraine" at all is up for debate, as it includes Odessa Oblast, which is really "southwestern Ukraine" in compass terms. What's more, it also includes part of the Russian Federation and Transnistria, such as bits of Rostov Oblast. Regardless, the first time the word "Novorossiya" was used in recent times was in Putin's diatribe earlier in the year. Prior to that, it had been dead for a century at least. Sure, in the context of the recent war, "Novorossiya" is used by DPR and LPR forces. However, that has nothing to do with geographical regions in Ukraine, and it is heavily disputed. As "Novorossiya" is mostly outside their control, and given that people in areas outside their control do not use the word, it is outright absurd to even think about having this redirect, let alone the fact that "Novorossiya" isn't even geographically-related to a so-called "southeastern Ukraine". RGloucester — ☎ 04:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Notifying participants of the previous discussion:

@Czarkoff, Nyttend, and Petri Krohn: - TheChampionMan1234 07:48, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Keep: the term "Southeastern Ukraine" was commonly used in CIS before crysis, and is now being replaced with "Novorossiya". While I would strongly prefer meaningful description under Southeastern Ukraine title, there is no reasonable hope that until the political situation settles there will be meaningful article under that name, which rules out WP:RED deletion rationale.
  @RGloucester: This redirect links modern terms to its historical roots and context. There is no discussion, or even misunderstanding about territory these terms refer to; article may have no corresponding text, but it is editorial issue.
  @Volunteer Marek: Redirect for POV term (which is the only meaning of phrase "Southeastern Ukraine") will obviously be a POV redirect. So what? At least it makes sense – unlike redirect to the current target ("Ukraine").
  — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 02:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The idea that "Novorossiya" is replacing "southeastern Ukraine" is absurd at face value. Only a small part of the historical "Novorossiya" is controlled by people who use the term. Much of the historical "Novorossiya" isn't even in "southeast Ukraine". Anyway, there is no "phrase" of "southeastern Ukraine". It is just a compass direction, and not a proper now by any means. RGloucester — ☎ 04:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Air Force ranks and insignia of the Russian Federation .

• Air Force ranks and insignia of the Russian Federation . → Air Force ranks and insignia of the Russian Federation (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

This seems like a bit too implausible of a typo. I might accept a full stop at the end of the title as a redirect, but a space followed by a full stop doesn't seem worth keeping to me. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 11:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete. OK, not exactly recently created so we better discuss it. I created it to frustrate Long-term abuse/Roitr who does appear to have gone. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 11:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  If abuse is a problem, we can always create-protect it. I'll put it on my watchlist, just in case. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 15:50, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete. Stats show <1 hit per day on average, well below the threshold for real hits instead of bots &c. Unlikely typo. The target itself is wordy enough when we have, e.g. RAF ranks as a DAB with (only) entries to articles at RAF officer ranks and RAF other ranks: we don't have Air Force ranks of the United Kingdom, let alone Royal Air Force ranks of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (or any similar variation). We don't have Air force ranks of the United States of America, but we do have United States Air Force officer rank insignia. Is there anything saying what the naming convention should be on these? Si Trew (talk) 12:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. That stray period is a very unlikely typo. Steel1943 (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Happy Aquarium

• Happy Aquarium → Facebook (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

Appears to be some random Facebook app that we don't have an article on. - TheChampionMan1234 04:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete. WP:NOTFACEBOOK, WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Si Trew (talk) 06:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Delete We have a very fancrufty zh:開心水族箱 and that's all. 野狼院ひさし _{Hisashi Yarouin} 16:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Flag of Donetsk

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was procedural close, as the redirect has been converted into an article. --BDD (talk) 19:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Flag of Donetsk → Flag of Donetsk Oblast (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

Apparently the flag of the city is not the same as that of the province, as you can see from the Donetsk article. We should delete this. There is an article about the flag of the city of Donetsk on the Ukrainian Wikipedia at uk:Прапор Донецька - TheChampionMan1234 03:45, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Weak keep a hatnote can be added to indicate Donetsk the city, where the infobox has the flag. OR, disambiguate between the city, oblast, republic. -- 70.51.46.146 (talk) 04:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

*Weak retarget to Donetsk, the city. Si Trew (talk) 06:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• @SimonTrew and 70.51.46.146: I have started a draft at User:TheChampionMan1234/Flag of Donetsk and we might have to call this a procedural close if I finish it early. - TheChampionMan1234 06:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC

  @TheChampionMan1234: fine by me. Let me know if you want me to cast an eye over it for subbing or anything. I mentioned you at a new discussion I've started at WT:NOT#Wikipedia is not a translation dictionary, which you may want to contribute to. (Not sure if this whizzy new notification system would autmatically tell you that(I ssugIt would be nice to have a specific policy/guideline for all these foreign-language redirects, rather than having to restate the case each time. (I suggested WP:NOTPHRASEBOOK as a good shortcut, but not WP:PHRASEBOOK, which I felt would not be intuitive). My wording for such is very much a draft but I think has the essentials. Si Trew (talk) 06:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Everyone else should bung in too of course! Si Trew (talk) 06:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Once you're done, I suggest we go to WP:DYK with the hook "... that the Flag of Donetsk (pictured) is not the same as the Flag of Donetsk?". I have got these kinda slightly puzzling DYKs accepted a few times: of course they have to be factually correct but to lead the reader down the garden path is allowable. I used to hang out at DYK quite a lot, and was always making twisty hooks, perhaps because I like cryptic crossword puzzles. For example you can turn marriage into bondage without actually cheating. Si Trew (talk) 06:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Mind you, the article has to be over 5000 characters, excluding the infoboxes etc etc. So we might not make that far. After you're done translating or whatever you're up to, I could try to expand it with more info. I haven't done an article for a while so it would be fun for me. Si Trew (talk) 06:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• @SimonTrew: Think I'm pretty much done, please tag the redirect for speedy deletion, so I can move it there as opposed to copy pasting, however, this is all the information I can get from translating (with the help of Google) from the Ukrainian/Russian wikis. And I am not farmilar with DYK, but form what I understannd by your comment, I think it does require more expansion. Best regards. - TheChampionMan1234 07:27, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @TheChampionMan1234:I see you have already gone CSD, which of course I support and should be uncontroversial to change an R to an articlem so I just mention it here so the folks over at SPEEDY don't think there's some intrigue. Collaboration, certainly, but in the best sense. I think you can move over redirect yourself, can't you? I can and I am not a magician. Si Trew (talk) 08:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @SimonTrew:LOL, how can I do that when there is already an RfD tag placed on the redirect, and furthermore, the redirect has history, so I can't do that (I've attempted that before) - TheChampionMan1234 08:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, fair point.

I'll try to expand it once it's moved, which I assume it will be. I just wanted the above in quickly since they don't hang about over at SPEEDY. I think it could be a good candidate – especially since the affairs in Ukraine are in the news a bit at the moment. I wondered if you'd done DYK. I'll hold your hand if you want, but for me to review it would be COI of course. I have had a few over the years, and once I was complimented for always writing "hooky" hooks, that is to say intriguing but not actually misleading. However, obviously the pic would be of the flag and perhaps that might be seen as a bit too politically charged for main page though. But give it a go, eh? I'll try to expand it. Si Trew (talk) 08:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• • @TheChampionMan1234: I've made a number of minor subs at the draft in your userspace (added stub templates, external links, etc, corrected the aspect ratio in the infobox) and used the usual vexillology terminology I hope). Surprised the SPEEDY is so UNSPEEDY today. I changed the SPEEDY as I think you kinda listed it the wrong way round, i.e. you listed the target but not the source... I have asked at WP:HELPDESK#Interwiki links whether to add the Interwiki links since I am not sure if it is wise to add them while in draft, I don't know how the newfangled Interwiki engine would cope with that. Si Trew (talk) 09:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Procedural close. No longer a redirect; Was been moved over from your draft into article space just a few seconds ago. I'll close the helpdesk request, then. Si Trew (talk) 09:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Doneck

• Doneck → Donetsk (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

No affinity for Czezh/Slovak - TheChampionMan1234 03:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete, via usual reasoning. Si Trew (talk) 05:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Keep, "c" is often pronounced "ts" in Slavic languages, so this is a plausible guess at the spelling. Siuenti (talk) 07:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. Not convinced with that one. "C" in Hungarian is also pronounced (English) "ts", and that's not Slavic. The original is not in the Latin alphabet. So I see your point, but then I thought of tsunami and tsar.

I'd say the same for Done'tsk and Donet'sk which although used in articles, what is the apostrophe supposed to stand for (to someone unfamiliar with Ukranian)? glottal stop? aitch dropping? Si Trew (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Those two look wrong but Donets’k is reasonable, there is a soft sign before the "k" indicating palatization of the 'ts'. Siuenti (talk) 18:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment further to my keep !vote: Romanization_of_Ukrainian#Tables_of_romanization_systems has two systems where "ц" is romanized as "c". Siuenti (talk) 19:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Keep You've persuaded me. Perhaps I was wrongfotted by the comment "No affinity for Czech/Slovak" where (I think we are all agreed) it is actually Ukrainian. (Naughty Champ!) I think it is unlikely as a search term for most English speakers: but it does no harm. Si Trew (talk) 04:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Sur America

• Sur America → South America (links to redirect • history • stats)     [ Closure: keep/delete ] 

This word order isn't used in Spanish. - TheChampionMan1234 00:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Delete. Not Spanish. (Where it is es:América del Sur.) Nor Catalan (ca:Amèrica del Sud, Occitan (oc:America del Sud), Portuguese (pt:América do Sul) etc, [ad nauseam] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help). Even if it were, we are WP:NOT a translaton dictionary. Si Trew (talk) 05:55, 19 September 2014 (UTC)