Talk:The Forgotten Holocaust

Cooper is WP:UNDUE

I think it's one thing to cite reviews which are in-depth, and another to cite mentions in passing (hence, removal of Cooper: [1]). Lukas book is cited in hundreds of works ([2]). I don't think attributing one liners fits with WP:UNDUE (also consider WP:BLP/WP:FRINGE with regards to descriptions that are not supported by majority of sources). I think we should focus on what is said in the in-depth works, and not on passing comments. PS. Reviewing this again, I think it is undue to call Lukas an apologist based on a single comment in passing (I did find the page in question here: [3] in case anyone else wants to review this) BUT I do think it can be mentioned somewhere that his work is challenging the view of Poles as antisemites, this was mentioned in some sources I read, but I don't recall if there were reviews of this books of his or some others. PPS. I checked the book in Google Print and I can't verify "He states Lukas had attempted to minimize the effect of antisemitism on the treatment of Jews in WWII Poland,[21]:103" (that page does not mention him?) and "and cites several example in various areas." seems to be WP:SYNTH. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:46, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Cooper is more focused on breadth than depth, and gives Lukas as an example in 8-9 places in different contexts. His importance here is as one of the more recent sources, who's had time to evaluate Lukas in a historical context; most of the other reviews are from the 1980's. In a way he's an example of how Lukas is perceived today, rather than then. This is one reason, I believe, for why there aren't any more recent reviews. The others that do exist, like Pawlikowski's - who gives an anecdote (which I've been unable to get a citation for, so didn't add) of how Prof. Thaddeus Gromada, entrusted with presented one of Lukas's papers, edited it for what he perceived were "antisemitic undertones" - or Grabowski's, give a similar impression.

P. 103 cites Lukas as a "prominent Polish historian". François Robere (talk) 12:59, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

That anecdote seems to be false: Talk:Richard_C._Lukas#False_claims_(BLP)_issue. At least according to both Lukas and Gromada. Even if Lukas could be biased, I think Gromada's word can be trusted.

Re Cooper, I have reconsidered my view and I am fine with adding more from him, as long as we avoid SYNTH. It's important to illustrate how modern scholars feel about older works. It's a bit of a shame reviews of older works are rarely published (through we do have one from 2014, I think). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I've emailed Pawlikowski to hear his version.

Agreed. Quote as much of him as you will. He mentioned Lukas in different contexts, so there's something for everyone. François Robere (talk) 11:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Prof. Pawlikowski replied with permission to quote him here:

The conference at which Dr. Gromada read the Lukas paper goes back well over a decade, if not longer. So my recollection is a bit faded. But I can confirm that Dr. Gromada made the statement to which you refer. If I recall correctly, he told several of us prior to the session that he was going to distance himself from some of Prof. Lukas' statements in the paper. I also recall that he made a public statement in this regard prior to beginning of his reading of the paper. In short, Dr. Gromada definitely said this even though I am unable to remember every aspect of his disclaimer.

— John T. Pawlikowski (by email to the undersigned, 11.04.2020)

François Robere (talk) 15:16, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, but considering that Gromada said something else in the linked letter, I think we should conclude that Pawlikowski's memory is faulty, as he himself admits is a possibility. Through this entire direction of discussion is likely pointless, given WP:BLP as well as the fact we don't have a WP:RS for Pawlikowski's claim. See also Talk:Richard_C._Lukas#False_claims_(BLP)_issue. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:48, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

I see no reason to assume one is more reliable than the other, and indeed it's irrelevant as it's not in the article to begin with. What it does matter for are the problems inherent in Lukas's work, and the mixed acceptance it received. François Robere (talk) 12:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Let's keep things in perspective. Fringe criticism is, well, fringe. When 90% of the reviews are positive, well, that's consensus. Dissenting minority views exist and are, well, WP:FRINGE/WP:UNDUE. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

90% of the reviews are from the mid 1980's, and including the long correspondence over the pages of the Sarmatian Review are it's close to 60-40. Later reviews are less accepting. François Robere (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd agree, but it is hard to generalize from such a small sample. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:52, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Btw, Cooper himself was criticized for using the term apologist here: [4] "His tone is frequently angry, repeatedly referring to some Polish historians as “apologists,” and even ultimately holding the Poles responsible for the slaughter ofJews by Ukrainian Cossacks under Bohdan Chmielnicki, because the revolt was caused by the Poles’ cruel treatment ofthe Cossacks. Libraries should balance Cooper’s interpretation of Poles and Jews during the Holocaust with Richard C. Lukas’s The Forgotten Holocaust". That's from John A. Drobnicki, from York College, City University of New York.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Newspaper critique

I almost forgot that Jan Grabowski (historian) criticized this book in a recent Polish newspaper article ([5]). He effectively endorses Engel's critique of the book (and he explicitly mentions his 1987 review). I am not sure if this should be mentioned here, given it's a newspaper mention, and in passing (few sentence). Interestingly, Grabowski claims that Lukas works have many errors and are not cited by modern scholars. Which is a bit stange, according to Google Scholar, Forgotten Holocaust has ~250 academic cites, and ~35 or so in the last 5 years, so it is still seemingly cited ([6]). I recently expanded Lukas' bio, and all I can say is that up to and including Forgotten Holocaust, academic reviews of his works were pretty positive. His latter works got fewer reviews, and they were more "middle-of-the-road", mostly since his latter works are collections of memoirs, so more descriptive, and less analytical. It is possible that the modern view of Lukas is changing, but I could not find any in-depth critique of this book (or of Lukas in general) to back up Grabowski's newspaper's critique. PS. Newspapers are also problematic per WP:APL#Article sourcing expectations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:18, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Indeed he has, but WP:APL#Article sourcing expectations. See my comment above on what Lukas has done in terms of Polish and Jewish histories; you'll probably find he's treated differently on each. François Robere (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

That said, I don't think there was a clear consensus in APL re newspapers. Maybe we should ask for a simple clarifications re newspapers as a source, citing this and the Times of Israel diff you recently removed elsewhere (Sunny Day I think)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:02, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

It was there, yes, but we've had this discussion before. If you want to file on ARCA I'll be happy to oblige, just make sure you clarify no one's looking for reversing those sourcing requirements. François Robere (talk) 11:09, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

In the context of the puzzling claim that the book is obsolete, it was called "elementary" in [7] but I think it's a passing mention that does not warrant a mention. Just a note that recently (2009) the book is still seen as useful by many scholars. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Davies

Re: [8]. Books in good presses are often subject to a peer review. Forewords and such might be subject to it as well. In all honesty, it is hard to be sure, the point is it is also hard to assume this was not peer reviewed. I think it should be fine as long as it clearly states this is from a foreword or such. It does pass a lot of the RS flags - reliable outlet, reliable publisher. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:37, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but this is Hippocrene Books, not the original university press. François Robere (talk) 13:03, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

A press does not need to have "University" it is name to be seen as highly reliable (Routledge...). Granted, Hippocrene Books is not in the same league, but I don't see why we should assume it is not reliable, particularly given Davies is seen as one of the main authorities on works about Polish history. Again, I think that as long as we clearly attribute him to a foreward, it is not a problem with RS? We can take this to WP:RSN if you wish. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:06, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Hippocrene Books is not in the same league, but I don't see why we should assume it is not reliable Because it's not in the same league.

A university press should have mighty good reason to drop a "best seller" like Lukas, and Lukas should have mighty good reason to take it to Hippocrene rather than to a larger, or more specialized publisher. François Robere (talk) 11:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I'll ask at WP:30 first. Norman Davies is reliable, and there is no proof Hippocrene is not reliable enough to have some sort of peer review. I don't see why a clearly attributed quote from his foreword should not be in this article. PS. I went ahead and asked at RSN anyway and pinged you; for the record: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Foreword_by_Norman_Davies_in_Hippocrene_Books.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Procedural note: you can't really do both at the same time. The moment another editor commented on RSN, WP:30 became redundant. François Robere (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

You are right, I'll go and remove the 30. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:07, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Salmonowicz

I found an interesting comment about this book in Salmonowicz ([9] open access but in Polish; note: he mispells his name in text, sometimes it is Lukas, sometimes, Lucas, I guess the copyediting of this journal is non existent...). The following is from a footnote on p.159 and refers to the book's (Polish edition I presume) treatment of "Jewish matters pp. 154–193 - this is a balanced sketch. It is true that the author did not know some of the unfortunate materials revealed only in recent years, however, taking this into account (including into the anti-Jewish actions of the Podlasie population in 1941), his many statements are closer to the realities of the era than works of both apologetic movement, as well as a kind of negativism represented towards Polish affairs in the "Gross's school". It is absolutely impossible to accuse Lukas of minimizing Polish anti-Semitism." It's interesting particularly that as Cooper thinks Lukas is a Polish apologist, Salmonowicz argues he is not and instead seems him as a middle ground. PS. Through Richards Plavnieks (11 September 2017). Nazi Collaborators on Trial during the Cold War: Viktors Arājs and the Latvian Auxiliary Security Police. Springer. pp. 4–. ISBN 978-3-319-57672-5. Lukas work is described as the other side view" compared to Gross. Although Gross work was published much later, of course. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Not a good sign as far as editorial controls are concerned. François Robere (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Hyphenation of year span

Hi, just a trivial question: is there a particular reason behind the use of hyphen rather than endash in the page title? Eisfbnore ^(会話) 20:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Eisfbnore: No, just a copypaste artifact. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:21, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Dubious Reviews

Madanay

Piotrus, do you support or oppose this edit? TrangaBellam (talk) 06:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I am particularly curious about why you chose to add the descriptor of "a PhD student"? It is technically accurate but gives an air-of-authority to the review which is misplaced. I am assuming good faith but hope to hear from you. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam I do not support removal of reliable, academic sources, although I fully agree those are not high-end ones. Their removal, IMHO, is unhelpful (WP:NOTCENSORED); my solution has always been to clearly attribute the author and the journal, so that the readers can make their own mind about which source is better than the other. As for the PhD student, I can't recall why I did so but ironically, I think that the descriptor "PhD student" indicates this is a lower quality source - still reliable (see also WP:THESIS) but not to be taken with as much authority as reviews written by "professors". I am open to adding some qualifications to the reviews you challenged - we can point out, for example, that some authors are not historians but librarians or such. But, again, I do not believe there are any grounds to remove their POV from the article. IMHO we should acknowledge the existence and content of all reviews of any given book, it's all part of making the article comprehensive. Btw, we should probably add the criticism of this book from the recent G. and K. article, it is peer reviewed and while the discussion of the book is not in-depth there, it is relevant. More content > less content, this is how Wikipedia grows. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

No, verifiability does not guarantee inclusion and we are not an indiscriminate collection of information. You need to show how the review by a "behavioral science and health policy PhD scholar" with research interests in "healthcare consumerism, judgment and decision-making, and behavioral economics" is DUE. I won't have objected if she was pursuing a PhD on Holocaust etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

It is DUE because a reception section of the book should list all reviews, not just reviews by folks with relevant PhDs. We can qualify the reviews and note which ones are published by people with more relevant background and which aren't, but there is no policy justification for removing them. In fact, removing such reviews makes the article less neutral (and comprehensive).

From Wikipedia:WikiProject_Books: "Reception — quote the opinions of book reviewers. This section should contain a balanced reflection of the reviews. Providing balance is sometimes difficult because some reviews are more critical than others; some reviews may simply state "this book is great" while others may provide detailed analysis about what made the book good/bad. Because this section involves opinions, it should be heavy with quotes and citations."

Nothing in WP:BOOK style guideline suggests we should be selective when it comes to including reviews (of course, common sense will stop us from including user generated reviews from Goodreads or similar). But yeah, a review written by a "behavioral science and health policy PhD scholar" is perfectly fine to include here (again, I don't mind including a qualification and for example saying that such and such reviewer is a "behavioral science and health policy PhD scholar"). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

And, your qualifier of "a PhD student" was disingenous because an average reader would have got the impression that she was pursuing her dissertation on some relevant topic, and had some expertise in the topic-area. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't object to that qualifier being removed. The mention of the review, however, should be restored. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:57, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Drobnicki

@TrangaBellam you wrote that Drobnicki is a librarian; no Ph.D. etc.. First of all, I don't see why being a "librarian" would exclude anyone's opinion. Secondly, Drobnicki is a historian by training and has published a number of works on Holocaust-denial literature. So his opinion as a professional historian and librarian is extremely valuable when it comes to Holocaust related literature. Marcelus (talk) 10:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Nobody is a proffessional historian without a PhD in some relevant discipline, please! He is obviously untrained to dissect the errors (and lack thereof) in specialist monographs like our subject. Fwiw, Drobnicki's body-of-work is mostly about whether libraries should feature Holocaust-denial literature and if so, best practices etc. Not the history of Holocaust and you know that damn well. We do not have a scarcity of reviews from domain-scholars to start scraping the barrel. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

@TrangaBellam I disagree with you. And (quote from your comment above): you know that damn well. How do you know Marcelus knows that damn well? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I am a sock of Icewhiz, if that is what you are implying. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

No (why are you saying that?), I asked you how do you know that Marcelus knows that damn well?

And - are you aware that WP:BLP apply to talk pages also? GizzyCatBella🍁 15:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I assume that after raking in about nineteen thousand odd edits — primarily, in quite controversial topics on S. Asian History — with an unblemished block-log, such vague allusions to BLP do not have much appeal for me. if you are concerned, BLPN is a nice venue; I won't mind. Since Marcelius is aware that [Drobnicki] has published a number of works on Holocaust-denial literature, he ought to be aware of their content; I do not see how else he can have that knowledge! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Arbitration case, and Legitimizing fringe academics

According to a recent article published in the Journal of Holocaust Research, this Wikipedia article may have been strongly influenced by advocacy from a group with an axe to grind about the historical record. The journal articles lambastes Wikipedia for systematic distortion in articles specifically about the Holocaust in Poland, including this article, which is mentioned by name in the section "Legitimizing fringe academics".

Excerpt from the journal article:

Take The Forgotten Holocaust, a 1986 book by the aforementioned Richard C. Lukas that borders on Holocaust distortion. Lukas attempted, without any reference to historical evidence from the Polish, Israeli, or German archives, to broaden the definition of the Holocaust in such a way as to also include the killings of ethnic Poles by the Germans. As soon as The Forgotten Holocaust came out, David Engel, one of the most eminent historians of the Holocaust, wrote a thirteen-page scathing critique of the book in the journal Slavic Review, where he charged Lukas’s research with ‘distortion, misrepresentation and inaccuracy.’Footnote104 Engel demonstrated in detail that Lukas had made sweeping generalizations, invented facts, disregarded archival sources, and displayed a complete lack of familiarity with secondary sources.

Despite Lukas’s clear weaknesses, the editor User1***** has written him a glowing Wikipedia biography.Footnote105 User1****** trivializes Engel’s critique by juxtaposing it with multiple enthusiastic appraisals of The Forgotten Holocaust. ‘It has received a number of positive reviews, and a single dissenting critical review,’ wrote User1***** in Richard C. Lukas’s biography on Wikipedia.Footnote106 Indeed, User1***** created a new article dedicated solely to The Forgotten Holocaust, where he quoted from the positive reviews in detail. A close look reveals that the laudatory evaluations were written by scholars with far less expertise on the topic than Engel (one of them was a graduate student who never went on to publish in the field; several others were not historians), and most were only one or two pages long. By portraying Engel’s opinion as a lone dissenter in a sea of praise, User1***** massaged the Wikipedia article to show Lukas in a positive light. Another editor called User2****** tried to temper the article’s praise for Lukas, but User1***** reverted him immediately.Footnote107 With 92 percent of the page’s content authored by User1*****, Wikipedia’s article on The Forgotten Holocaust continues to celebrate Lukas.Footnote108

See the arbitration case request at WP:ARC#Holocaust in Poland.

Editors of good faith should read the article and draw their own conclusions. As always, the article should reflect the best secondary sources available. Given the seriousness of the allegations, I would be in favor of WP:TNT, starting by reducing the article to as single, uncontentious paragraph about the details of the book. If the article was fine as written, we lose nothing by starting afresh, and building it back by consensus bit by bit, possibly even to exactly the point where it is now if that's what the sources support, although I suspect that that is not the path it will take.

If people are shy to take a step in such a charged atmosphere, I understand if no one replies here, and I would not have any qualms about considering a bold edit on my own reducing it to a paragraph, but I would prefer to hear from other editors first. If there is nothing here in a few days, I will likely take that step. Mathglot (talk) 01:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The article does not merit a WP:TNT. I spend a considerable amount of time looking for references and summarizing various reviews; some of which are not in English. You are welcome to review each reference, add or remove content. But there is no justification for a TNT. However, if you think otherwise - WP:AFD is a place to propose a TNT solution. On a side note, please be mindful of BLP. The author of this book is a respected academic, still alive. That another scholar is very critical of them, is one thing, but we need to be careful considering whether to repeat such claims here (or act on them - WP:UNDUE is a thing too). Btw, the source you cite has been already discussed here (see discussion above), and I noted we should probably use it to add a bit of criticizm (authors G. and K. criticized this book) but I'd be careful with the quotations because, IMHO, saying for example that a book "borders on Holocaust distortion" is a very serious accusation, and the authors dicuss it for what? Two sentence or so? What we have here is effectively a very strong criticism but in passing. Anyway, I encourage you to check all sources cited in the article, see if they are summarized correctly, and look for additional sources to expand it. The more eyes fact-check this article, the better. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. If it ends up with TNT, that wouldn't be a BLP issue, because the idea would be to simply reduce the article to an essential kernel which is agreed by everyone (which means it wouldn't include any criticism by, or even mention of the recently published article). This is easier than it sounds, because this is an article about a book, and could be strictly about the name of the author, publisher, date, and so on. Essential information about the author could be added if needed, his vital statistics, employer, position, other books, etc. without getting into any controversial material. One could easily compose a paragraph or two or even more which nobody could object to. Removing 75% of the article wouldn't be a BLP violation, but it could very well be against consensus; hence this discussion first. We'll see how that goes. The references you found will be invaluable as a resource for rebuilding, and as you know, nothing is lost in the history. There's even a tool to extract all the urls or refs somewhere; I can see if I can find it, and copy it to Talk; I saw that done someplace, and it was very handy. Mathglot (talk) 03:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I just don't see the need to remove anything. What is the justification? Many newspaper articles and evena academic resrearch have criticized various Wikipedia articles before, and TNT was very rarely a result. Here we have an academic essay, quite problematic (see my analysis), which in passing criticizes the subject here. We can discuss the criticism; we can discuss each and every single sentence of the article here or reference - but I see zero reason, policy- or common sense-wise, to start from scratch, simply because some off-wiki article is critical of the subject. Imagine, for a moment, we would TNT articles about Trump and Obama, or American politics, or zillion other topics, because of some criticism in here or there... that's not how we do things. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I see no reason to "reboot" the article. It seems to me that the very existence of a long section on the reception of the book indicates that it was mixed. And while Engels' review is indeed the only strongly negative one, the tone of most of the others is rather restrained, with the main virtue of the book cited by reviewers being its pioneering nature. None of the reviewers rated the book as the definitive voice on the subject; rather, they appreciated its character as a popularization of an under-represented topic in English literature. Marcelus (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)