Wikipedia talk:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia

Addition to list

An admin may want to take the time to add Namik Haluk Baskinci to the list. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Namik Haluk Baskinci. Best.4meter4 (talk) 11:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

FYI. This was an 11 year long hoax.4meter4 (talk) 15:24, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

New longest-lived hoax

Jang Ju-won, a fictitious South Korean jade sculptor, has overtaken Abu-Ali Urbuti as the longest-lived hoax article at 16 years, 2 months, 5 days. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I will not oppose the deletion of this article, but is it really to be considered as a hoax? There are other sources outside of Wikipedia descriptions such as http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.amp.asp?newsIdx=168635 or http://www.antiquealive.com/masters/Jade/Carvings_Chinese_Jade.html Takot (talk) 06:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

This seems to be a case of poor WP:BEFORE since the Korea Times article is literally the top result of a Google search of "Jang Ju-won" jade -wikipedia. The article contains lots of information not found in the Wikipedia article, and both sources seem to corroborate the existence of Jang Ju-won, even if he doesn't meet WP:GNG or warrant an article on Wikipedia. I'm for removing Jang Ju-won from the list of hoaxes if consensus can be established that this person actually existed. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Also a television interview here on Heart to Heart on Arirang TV, and a 2012 newspaper interview in the Chonnam Tribune. These were easy to find, in English, on the first two pages of a Google search. Take it off the hoax list please, this is embarrassing. --Canley (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Several mentions of Jang in Korean Heritage, the quarterly magazine of the Cultural Heritage Administration. It does seem to confirm that the art of jade carving is "Important Intangible Cultural Heritage No. 100", not Jang, but names him as "Korea's designated master of jade carving". This is clearly not a hoax, and is starting to look like a bad deletion as well. In this discussion alone there are enough substantial sources to recreate the article and adequately source it. --Canley (talk) 12:39, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it from the table. The evidence for his existence is overwhelming. He might even meet GNG with all these sources! In the future, editors should do a quick WP:BEFORE to make sure that the article was properly deleted as a hoax before adding to the table, especially if there's no AfD. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 12:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

There's also an article on the Korean Wikipedia which no one seems to have noticed: ko:장주원! --Canley (talk) 12:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I have restored the (original, not "longest hoax ever on Wikipedia") page; it's still likely a mess, but any subsequent deletion needs to happen via AfD if at all.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 16:58, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

warsaw

I've removed [1] this as it simply wasn't a "hoax". An article that was written on basis of old outdated and incorrect sources is crap, but it isn't the same as a deliberate "hoax". This was added to this list by an editor who used this to troll others and who since has been indefinetly banned. Should have been removed years ago. Volunteer Marek 15:20, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The page on the article itself describes it as "a legend[13] or conspiracy theory" which again, is different than a "hoax". Volunteer Marek 15:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

• It was a hoax (one of Wikipedia's longest-running hoaxes) according to the cited RS and thus should remain listed here. Levivich 21:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

It was not a hoax by definition of what Wikipedia considers a hoax (or any other definition for that matter). There was no intent to deceive by anyone here. The article was just written in 2004 based on crap sources which didn't get debunked until many years later. You know this. You also know that the given source is compromised by the fact that it's based on false claims made by an indef banned user (in fact, he's globally banned from all Wikipedia projects for harassment and extreme threats). I know some people think this should be preserved as some kind of a "shrine" to User:Icewhiz but from the point of view of the encyclopedia that is exactly the OPPOSITE of what should be done. Remove it. Volunteer Marek 21:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Levivich, you keep claiming that the idea that this was a "hoax" is well sourced, by aside from the Haaretz article that was essentially ghost-written by Icewhiz or its derivatives, there are no other sources calling it a "hoax". The other source provided, London Review of Books, only says that this was a "conspiracy theory" [2] (which it was, after it got debunked several years after the article got created) and barely mentions Wikipedia. Calling it a "hoax" is WP:OR, and it's OR that was done by a now globally banned user. Again, not seeing why you would insist on keeping something like that in this list. Volunteer Marek 22:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

In no particular order:

1. My opinion that Warsaw concentration camp is a hoax is based primarily on my own thorough (meaning: many hours) research of the article's history (reviewing all ~500 contribs, back to 2008) that I did two years ago, before the Haaretz story broke (Oct. 2019), but after the hoax allegations were first raised regarding this article (May 2019).
2. Haaretz isn't the only RS that calls it a hoax. So does Times of Israel [3] and Deutschlandfunk Nova [4].
3. London Review of Books might not use the word "hoax," but it does describe it as a deliberate attempt at misinformation by certain Polish activists: Marches, demonstrations, public meetings and religious ceremonies were held, bogus maps circulated, false testimonies promoted, Wikipedia entries amended.
4. In 2009, you edited the hoax part of Warsaw concentration camp (the section about the tunnel), and changed "An extremely controversial fact remains" to "A remaining controversy centers around," which, in my view, is minimizing the controversyand thereby, albeit in a small way, helping to perpetuate this hoax.
5. You say above The page on the article itself describes it as "a legend[13] or conspiracy theory" which again, is different than a "hoax". This is incredible, because you're the editor who removed the word "hoax" from Warsaw concentration camp, and in the edit summary, you reference Icewhiz as the reason, and you did this today, one minute before making the OP above! Incredible you'd remove the word "hoax" from the article and then argue the absence of the word justifies removing it from this list. I've reverted your removal and reinstated it, because it's per the source cited.
6. I get that you think the Haaretz story is basically not true because Icewhiz was involved, but it's not true that the article was "ghostwritten" by IW. There were multiple sources for that story, including multiple on-the-record sources. These sources include Havi Dreifuss who called it fake history, and Jan Grabowski, who called it a conspiracy theory. IW was just one source for the Haaretz article.
7. Icewhiz is not the editor who discovered the hoax or first tried to remedy it. That was K.e.coffman, see Special:Diff/895624424.
8. It was actually a hoax, which is what matters to me the most. We judge RS to be RS or not based in part on how they handle corrections. The most important thing is that Wikipedia be transparent about this, and all, hoaxes. That's why this page exists.

This has been listed here for almost two years now. Start an RFC if you think it should be removed. Levivich 01:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

1. The Times of Israel story is just a rewrite of the Haaretz story. So is this "deutschalnd funk nova" source.
2. LRoB does not describe it as a hoax. BTW, can you enumerate, by account name, WHICH "Polish activists" promoted this "hoax" (sic)? Cuz... sorry, but that's 100% bullshit, which your "hours of research" that you did "before the Haaretz story broke", should've made you realize.
3. I made one edit over the article's 15 years (remember, 15 years?) of existence in which I copy edited a badly worded sentence. This is one edit out of thousands that have been made to the article over the years. Your attempt to try and pretend that this involves me "perpetuating a hoax" is dishonest, insulting and false. This is precisely the kind of comment which discredits your attempts here to preserve Icewhiz's - whom you strenuously supported throughout the ArbCom case even as it became clearer and clearer that he was a sociopathic nutcase - remaining garbage.
4. Yes, I removed the word hoax. Because it isn't a hoax. It was a conspiracy theory. Why do you think this is "incredible"?
5. Havi Dreyfuss and Jan Grabowski were not used for any part of the Haaretz story which concerned this particular article (and frankly, both of their statements merely display deep ignorance of how Wikipedia articles work. Grabowski thinks that the Polish government has hired "hundreds" of editors to edit English wikipedia (lol), while Dreyfuss couldn't believe that "the article (different one) changed before my eyes"). The sole source in Haaretz for this being a "hoax" was Icewhiz.
6. You're right that it was K.e.coffman who discovered that the article had problems. Which it did. But it was Icewhiz who went around claiming that it was a "hoax". You know this, since you were quite involved in the drama at the time.
7. I don't care how long it's been listed. Garbage is garbage. And let's see. Who put it in there? Oh, Icewhiz, [5], now globally banned. Then another editor tried removing it. Who put it back? Oh, it was you [6]. Did you "start an RfC" then? No? Why are you demanding one now? Hell, you didn't even comment in the discussion at the time [7]. Just blindly reverted.

And I know that you know that the whole "it's a hoax" spin was just Icewhiz's way of trying to get revenge for the fact that he was getting topic banned (then banned from en wiki, then globally banned). Why exactly should Wikipedia nourish this editor's revenge tactics? Why are YOU nourishing them?

Quite simply it's not a hoax, and a single source based on the opinions of an editor who was globally banned from all WMF projects for making threats and abuse, is not enough to include it here, even if a couple other sources "reported that Haaretz reported" with derivative reposts. Volunteer Marek 02:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

And actually, looking at Haaretz again, even that story doesn't call the article a "hoax" in it's own voice. It puts "hoax" in quotation marks in the headline (and headlines aren't RS anyway) and in the text only says that "Icewhiz claimed it was a hoax". Likewise neither Grabowski nor Dreyfuss call it a "hoax" either, they just say it was a conspiracy theory. Volunteer Marek 03:07, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

1. Times of Israel said, in its own voice, that Haaretz "established" that it "may have been the online encyclopedia's most enduring hoax". I don't speak German so no comment on the German source other than that it also uses the word "hoax."
2. I don't think you understood what I wrote. I'm talking about what the London Review of Books said (that's who I quoted in green), not the conclusions of my own research. I don't know which specific editors (described as Maria Trzcinska's "supporters") are responsible for Wikipedia entries amended--that's the London Review of Books' words, not mine. Ask them.
3. Yeah I think the fact that the only edit you made to that article in 15 years was an edit that minimized the controversy is evidence of your intent in making that edit (to minimize the controversy). But hey, I'll AGF that in 2009 when you made that edit, you didn't know that in 2007 it had already been debunked.
4. Incredible because you removed the word hoax from the article and then argued that because the article didn't call it a hoax, it shouldn't be listed on this page, without mentioning that you're the one who just removed the word from the article. That was an attempt at WP:FAITACCOMPLI.
5. Both Dreifuss and Grabowski say that they noticed the attempt to whitewash Wikipedia articles releated to Poland and the Holocaust in recent years. The whole Haaretz article centers around this Wikipedia hoax. The headline is "The Fake Nazi Death Camp: Wikipedia’s Longest Hoax, Exposed." I mean, it's incredible, again, that you're denying that Dreifuss and Grabowski are sources for this article about this hoax.

The word "hoax" appears 10 times in the Haaretz article:

1. The Fake Nazi Death Camp: Wikipedia’s Longest Hoax, Exposed
2. Yet both claims appeared, almost without interruption, for 15 years on the English-language version of Wikipedia in what is said to be Wikipedia’s longest-standing hoax.
3. The nature of this falsehood – the fact that it’s a well-known conspiracy theory that was deliberately pushed out – alongside the scope of its impact on other articles and their longevity within Wikipedia are what turn the extermination camp at KL Warschau into the longest-running hoax ever uncovered on the online encyclopedia.
4. The person who first discovered the scale of the distortion – and is now arguing to have it recognized as Wikipedia’s longest hoax – is an Israeli editor dubbed Icewhiz, who refuses to be identified by his real name but agreed to speak with Haaretz.
5. The false facts that comprise the death camp hoax – the existence of gas chambers and the 200,000 death toll – managed to survive in Wikipedia because they were inextricably intertwined with real historical facts regarding the Warsaw concentration camp.
6. The centerpiece of the hoax – the one that supported the 200,000 claim – was the supposed existence of gas chambers in Warsaw during the war to systematically kill Poles.
7. Having a respected newspaper vet his claims and publish the story of the hoax plays a key role in his attempt to defend history.
8. Now, the Wikipedia community – the same one that is shunning Icewhiz – must decide on another question: Will it recognize the debunked version of KL Warschau as the longest-standing hoax in Wikipedia’s history.
9. Judging by the battle over Holocaust history, it is very likely that the existence of this hoax too will be struck from the annals of Wikipedia’s history.
10. He [User:Piotrus] argued that though he does not support the false narrative regarding the existence of a death camp at KL Warschau, he does not think it constitutes a “hoax” – but rather a "fringe theory."

Your consistent focus on Icewhiz is ... well, in the past, I've called it argumentum ad icewhiz. That comment I think was over a year ago. Still at it. At some point, you've got to move on and stop fighting Icewhiz. Levivich 03:18, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Lol. User:Levivich in the statement above you complaint about the argumentum ad icewhiz yet here you are making flimsy excuse for your own edit warring based on an ArbCom case from ... what? Twelve years ago? "It's okay for me but not for thee", right? Volunteer Marek 05:03, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I'll be happy to move on when 1) he stops socking relentlessly and 2) some editors stop trying to preserve his messed up edits on Wikipedia, like here.

As to your quotes - they all (except headline, which is even more click bait than article as a whole) reference Icewhiz, explicitly or implicitly as the person who called it a "hoax".

I'd also appreciate it if you struck and apologized for your false insinuation in your #4 and #3 above that I had something to do with this "hoax", just because I made ONE MINOR COPY EDIT in an article over a period of 15 freakin' years out of thousands of edits that have been made to it. When you make claims like that... well, that just speaks for itself and does not reflect well on you. Volunteer Marek 04:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

IMHO this is quite clear: regardless of the involvement of the indef-banned user here (which hardly helps...), the word hoax means, per our own definition, "a falsehood deliberately fabricated to masquerade as the truth. It is distinguishable from errors in observation or judgment". Since this has been pretty well researched (re Signpost report etc.), we know this was not a deliberate falsehood; Haaretz made a vocabulary error (perhaps for clickbait-title reasons, perhaps the journalist misunderstood the details fed to him by the indef-banned editor, shrug). Since it was not a hoax, just an error, it doesn't matter what the newspaper wrote - we list real hoaxes here, not errors that someone mistakenly called a hoax. In fact, the inclusion of this entry here is more of a 'hoax' than the original example. Icewhiz invented this term in his original writeup, despite being experienced enough Wikipedian to know it was not true. If anything, we are dealing with a "hoax about a hoax" here. But at best, it lasted about 2-3 years, and is meta enough it doesn't belong here. Let's stop prolonging its life (and WP:DFTT...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:44, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Since this has been pretty well researched (re Signpost report etc.), we know this was not a deliberate falsehood Huh? Where in Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-10-31/In the media#A fake Nazi death camp in Warsaw does it talk about not being a deliberate falsehood? What's the "etc." you refer to? What's the evidence this was not a deliberate falsehood? Levivich 04:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

The article about the Warsaw Concentration Camp was not created to produce a hoax. This allegation was made up by the globally banned user who ran to Haaretz after his ban. The report regarding the entire issue by one of the prolific users who abandoned Wikipedia due to the Icewhiz's activity explains it well here: “The Fake Nazi Death Camp: Wikipedia’s Longest Hoax” conspiracy theory invented by a banned Wikipedian. --->[8] - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

AFAIK no one has ever argued that the article was created to be a hoax. That wouldn't make sense because the article was created in 2004 but the hoax was debunked in 2006-2007 (by IPN at least). A little false content (the tunnel) was present at creation but more was added after the article's creation. (For those who don't know, there was a Warsaw concentration camp; the hoax content was describing it falsely as an extermination camp with a tunnel used as a gas chamber that killed 200,000 non-Jewish Poles.) Levivich 04:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich - The estimated reading time of the complete account I linked above contains 1737 words and requires 8 minutes, 41 seconds to read. [9] You responded to me in 4 minutes that was needed to read my post only and type the response. I can safely assume that you didn't bother to read what I linked. Once again, the full and precise explanation (with additional reading material) that it was not a hoax is to be found here [10] - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I've already read what you linked. I disagree it is a complete presentation. Like I said above, I've done my own research. Levivich 06:17, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

So you acknowledge that "no one has ever argued that the article was created to be a hoax" yet you still insist on calling it a "hoax" and are edit warring to keep this hoax-but-not-really-a-hoax-but-then-ill-say-its-a-hoax-but-maybe-not in the list. The later content that was added (NOT by a "Polish nationalist editor") was also added not to "hoax" anyone but simply because the editor was basing their edits on available sources (and yeah perhaps pushing a POV).

That reminds me, above you also asserted that your edit was "based primarily on my own thorough (meaning: many hours) research of the article's history" that the article was promoted "by certain Polish activists" - you want to name these "certain Polish activists" and how they promoted this hoax and back that up with diffs? No? Then strike it because it's false. Volunteer Marek 04:58, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

You are blatantly misquoting me by combining two quotes from two different paragraphs talking about two different things, and I already explained this in a previous comment above. The first quote comes from a paragraph talking about my research and the second quote comes from a paragraph talking about a London Review of Books article. Levivich 06:17, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

All the same you posted the explicit quote alleging there were "Polish activists" who supposedly promoted this hoax. Name them. Or acknowledge that that's nonsense. Volunteer Marek 06:20, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

No, it's not all the same. First of all, you might want to strike your blatant misquoting of me by combining two unrelated quotes (while we're asking each other to strike things). Secondly, as I already explained above, the LRB did not name the Wikipedia editors who the LRB said edited Wikipedia. You'll have to ask them who they were talking about. I specifically addressed this above, I don't understand why you're still on it. Levivich 06:27, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

but it does describe it as a deliberate attempt at misinformation by certain Polish activists <-- these are YOUR WORDS, not LRoB. Sorry, you can't hide behind a source on this one. Those words, yours, claim that there were "certain Polish activists". Name them. Volunteer Marek 06:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Are you kidding? I already addressed this above, let me repeat it: "I don't think you understood what I wrote. I'm talking about what the London Review of Books said (that's who I quoted in green), not the conclusions of my own research. I don't know which specific editors (described as Maria Trzcinska's "supporters") are responsible for Wikipedia entries amended--that's the London Review of Books' words, not mine. Ask them." I can't name them because the LRB didn't name them, they only identified them as Trzcinska supporters. Levivich 06:39, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

You included this assertion in your comment and presented it as if it was factual and you did this in your own words. You also claimed you did extensive research on the article - hence my question of who these ostensible "activists" were. Now it seems ... you DON'T think there were any "activists" and the source is wrong? Why are you trying to use it then? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Volunteer Marek 07:14, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

The error was added by User:Halibutt (now deceased so sadly cannot defend himself). But, a), when Halibutt added this error, it was not universally recognized as such, Trzcińska amateurish conspiracy theory was debunked only few years later by scholars (see further info here) and b) there is no proof Halibutt carried out deliberate misinformation, to claim otherwise is a WP:BLP violation. All we have is a claim by Icewhiz, repeated by Haaretz, that it was a hoax (Icewhiz was the one who called it hoax first here and Haaretz just repeated their claims). It's a baseless claim that argues Halibutt misled people intentionally, for which, I repeat, there is no proof, and further, the dates don't match (when he added this info there was no way for him to know it was false, as it wasn't proven false until years later). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

The whole point of including this article in this list was one big TROLL by Icewhiz, his parting gift to Wikipedia, and it's quite shameful that some editors insist on perpetuating this. Volunteer Marek 05:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Trolls can still contribute valid content and if they do I actually defend them (as in, it's one of my personal pet peeves but I really dislike it when I see valid - reliable, due, etc. - content being removed from articles simply because it was added by someone who got indef banned or their sock). Even Icewhiz. But in this case, I don't think the content is valid at all; Icewhiz made a mistake calling this a hoax, Haaretz repeated it, but a mistake is still a mistake even if repeated by a newspaper, and hence this should not be listed here. That it was Icewhiz who made that mistake in the first place is just a coincidence, of tangential interest of us who had the (mis)fortune to know him. That's all. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:07, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Well no, this was part of his overall strategy of general abuse. At the same time as he was talking to the Haaretz reporter he was concurrently doxxing aand threatening Wikipedia editors with his Twitter account and posting on reddit. As soon as the article came out he promoted it via those venues as well. The listing here is PART of that harassment. So the fact that it was Icewhiz is very very relevant. Volunteer Marek

I am hardly disputing that Icewhiz was harassing editors, I am just saying that regardless of what he did, we are not removing all of his Wikipedia contributions en masse. His edits should be considered on their own merits, without considering who added them or why, unless they violate our policies. For example, if you are saying that this was part of the harassment, then it may merit removal under WP:HARASS and the related Trust & Safety WMF rulings which led to his account being globally banned (for harassment). Now that I think of it, you may be right, given that the Haaretz interview was part of his campaign to discredit his opponents by any means necessary. Anyway, we both agree that this should not be here, my main point was that it was factually wrong, but you make a good point that it is also part of WP:HARASS-like problem too. Anyway, DFTT. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, as far as his edits in article space go that's true - which is why I've never undone his "good" edits. But this here is not article space, it was part of his campaign/strategy of harassment. Volunteer Marek 06:14, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, User:Levivich, I just noticed your edit summary here. Regarding your unfounded accusation of tag-teaming, I've requested an apology on your talk page per Wikipedia:Casting aspersions. Regarding "Piotrus but with all due respect you are quoted in the Haaretz article saying it was not a hoax but a fringe theory, so that gives you a COI for this", first, I don't see how being quoted gives me any WP:COI (feel free to take this to WP:COIN), but since you mention this little fact anyway, then here you go: we have a reliable source (me, under my full name, and described as a professor of sociology, in Haaretz) saying this is not a hoax but a fringe theory. Hence, as far as reliable sources go, we have an erroneous assertion this was a "hoax", not backed up by facts (per the discussion above), and then an expert in a reliable source who says it is not a hoax (and I don't believe anyone ever challenged my claim, did they? So in this discussion, in reliable sources, I believe I had the "last word", which was "this is not a hoax but a fringe theory"). I wasn't going to tout my own proverbial horn, but since you brought up this up in the first place, here you go. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

This again? This ist hoax. Pavel Richter's great book on Wikipedia, Die Wikipedia-Story, with big section on it. Campus Verlag published Richter.Richter writes how nationalists wove lies into existing article, hoax. This hoax on English Wikipedia, Dewiki was pure. Read book portion on https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/wikipedia-wie-sich-ein-erfundenes-vernichtungslager-15-jahre-lang-im-online-lexikon-halten-konnte-a-22f8b5f6-fc26-4794-b8a4-19bf8ab09638 or no so good translation https://newsrnd.com/tech/2020-11-26-wikipedia--how-an-invented-extermination-camp-could-stay-in-the-online-lexicon-for-15-years-.rJ-Itqb65D.html Gunter888 (talk) 10:39, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

"Das ist false!". Welcome back after two years of inactivity. How did you learn about this discussion? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:48, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources (including Haaretz, which was not uncritical of Icewhiz and certainly did not base its entire article solely on Icewhiz's claims) clearly refer to the supposed mass extermination of 200,000 non-Jewish Poles by poison gas at the Warsaw concentration camp as a hoax. Volunteer Marek and Piotrus have presented no reliable sources that dispute its characterization as a hoax (let alone that would attest to the accuracy of the original allegation); instead, they made semantic WP:OR arguments to the effect that the cited sources are wrong to use the word "hoax" because, in their opinion, "conspiracy theory" or "fringe theory" would be more appropriate (citing dictionary definitions as well as, in Volunteer Marek's words, personal knowledge "of how Wikipedia articles work"). However, such terms are not mutually exclusive. Notably, the London Review of Books article that Volunteer Marek cited in support of the "conspiracy theory" terminology makes clear that this was no innocent misunderstanding, but rather a deliberate attempt at falsifying history by "the Polish nationalist right," refuting a key tenet of Volunteer Marek's argument. (Volunteer Marek responded by aggressively asking Levivich to independently corroborate the London Review of Books's findings, but again, it is not necessary for Wikipedia editors to do so: We are not the arbiters of WP:TRUTH). In addition, Piotrus raised the objection that coverage of the Warsaw concentration camp article here is tantamount to a WP:BLP violation against the Wikipedian who created it, but that seems like a stretch to me. While I cannot disprove anyone's fear that continuation of the status quo (i.e., inclusion) might lead to violent threats or harassment directed against Volunteer Marek, Piotrus, GizzyCatBella, or other valued contributors, this does not seem like the appropriate forum to present evidence of an ongoing danger, and such charges should not be made lightly. In any case, I have had a contentious relationship with both Volunteer Marek and Icewhiz but I specifically ended up here as part of an outpouring of sympathy over Volunteer Marek's recent wholly unjustified (and since-retracted) block by Ymblanter—and, like Volunteer Marek, I cringe at Levivich's implausible disassembling on the subject of highly likely (WP:DUCK) sock– or meatpuppets of Icewhiz—yet my regrettable conclusion is that the arguments for exclusion/removal presented thus far by Volunteer Marek et al. do not withstand minimal scrutiny and generate far more heat than light.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:47, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

TheTimesAreAChanging, It's appreciated to see a neutral party weight in, even if it is not in support of my argument. Would you mind addressing the following arguments of mine: 1) Haaretz also cites ME, in my professional capacity, as going on record this is a NOT a hoax, but a fringe theory. As far as I know, nobody in a RS has challenge my criticism. Isn't my statement there a reliably sourced and unchallenged criticism of this term? 2) If you read the detailed analysis of this that User:Poeticbent posted on his talk page (and that nobody has ever challenged), he makes it pretty clear that the error was added by now-deceased User:Halibutt BEFORE anyone knew the theory was wrong. Is it really "semantics" to argue that dictionary definitions apply? How can this be a hoax when Halibutt had no way of knowing this was false or not when he added this? 3) As for claims of some still unidentified malicious Polish far righters or nationalists, nobody has ever identified anyone who propagated this claim, it's a pure conspiracy theory with no evidence. The facts remain that as soon as it was brought to our (English Wikipedia's community) attention that there was an error, it was swiftly corrected and nobody, even a sock or an IP, ever attempted to restore this error. In other words, there is zero evidence that this was ever intentionally added by anyone who was familiar with any criticism of this. To call it a hoax creates a misleading impression (based on zero evidence) that there was someone, somewhere, who tried to promote it (add or read it to Wikipedia) while knowing it is false. Since this has never been proven by reliable sources to be the case, all we have is effectively fake news, based on a clickbait heading, which is bad journalism (and as I noted above, with a link, the term hoax was, in this coined, coined by Icewhiz in his sandbox draft of the story that Signpost declined but Haaretz bought).Btw, you may be interested in reading my letter to Haaretz (sadly, Haaretz simply ignored my request for acknowledging even its receipt):here. Do note that both mine and Poeticbent's responses (and Icewhiz initial write up of the declined story) were mentioned in Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-10-31/In_the_media#A_fake_Nazi_death_camp_in_Warsaw which probably is the best (most knowledgable) third party write-up on this (sadly, the journalists who wrote the story up didn't know that much about Wikipedia, and worse, they bought into a story by then already indef banned Icewhiz, for whom, as VM's makes a convincing case, it was all part of his harassment campaign against his on-wiki enemies).

Also, regarding "We are not the arbiters of WP:TRUTH)". When a reliable source makes a mistake, we may not always be able to say so (that would be OR), but when that mistake is obvious (as I believe is the case here), we should also stop repeating that error. We can use our editorial judgment to determine if a source made an error, and then remove it from our article space (we just cannot debunk it ourselves as it would be OR, and have to wait for another RS to debunk it). Here I'll also assert that as for debunking in RS, there's my claim printed in Haaretz about the fringe theory vs hoax.

Bottom line (TL;DR :D) I am saying that this was not a hoax (there is no evidence of any malicious acting, as in a deliberate attempt of disinformation on the part of anyone adding that information). Some journalists made an error by calling this incident a hoax, a term first used for this by indef-banned harasser. Propagating this error is propagating fake news, started with malicious intent. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:47, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that I am an uninvolved editor as to this content matter but I disclose that I have commented on some of the associated blocks of editors. In my view, this can be framed as a difference in views about how a "Wikipedia hoax" is defined by experienced Wikipedia editors as opposed to how journalists off-Wikipedia choose to define a hoax here. In the Wikipedia context, a "hoax" is a deliberate effort by a liar or a troll to create false but plausible content, for the purpose of discrediting the encyclopedia. Journalists may choose to describe any deeply crappy Wikipedia article as a "hoax" without regards to how Wikipedians define the term. That is their right. But here on Wikipedia, we should define things in Wikipedia terms. Unless evidence can be produced indicating that any major contributor to the article that some editors want to retain in this list article was a conscious disinformation operative, then this specific article should not be kept in the hoax list. That is how I see it, at least. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:30, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Cullen328, Well said. And in all honesty, this is a problem not limited to this hoax. I looked at some other examples. #2 after Warsaw is about a Louvre pyramid [11]. But while nobody ever found a reference for this, can we be 100% this was an intentional hoax, attempting to mislead? Maybe that editor heard something or mistread it. Ditto here (example 2) or here (example 3). How are we to judge those were intended as hoaxes? Now, all of this - including the Warsaw case - could exist on a page about Wikipedia:List of errors on Wikipedia. Nobody is disputing such information was an error, but claiming them as intentional hoaxes is problematic. Outside of a few cases where the author went on a record and said they mislead people on purposes, those are errors that may or may not be hoaxes. I have removed zillion of unreferenced claims which seemed like errors over my wiki years, and in general I always considered them to be non-intentional errors instead of purposeful hoaxes, since who am I to judge and assume bad faith on the part of the person who added it? This entire page is a major WP:AGF problem. And even those admissions are hard to prove, I checked the few we report - one (Olimar The Wondercat) is sourced to a deleted tweet admission, another (Cindy and the Halo Boy

) to a page on Gawker [12] that as far as I can tell doesn't even mention said hoax! (Could the addition of the fake hoax to this page be a meta-hoax itself...?). Third, about kiwifruit, claims that "Hoax only came to light after hoaxer admitted to it." but there is no evidence in the linked diffs anyone admitted to this. This entire page needs major pruning (with no prejudice to preserving this stuff on the aforementioned list of errors). Perhaps even an AfD, since I couldn't find a single confirmation of the hoax here that, beyond a reasonable doubt, shows it was an intentional attempt to mislead and not some random error. (I am not saying there are no haoxes here, but where's the proof? This article is really a Wikipedia:List of errors on Wikipedia that someone claimed may be a hoax) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This is EXACTLY right. This isn’t a Wikipedia article about a subject where we “follow reliable sources”. This is non-article space about Wikipedia itself (as was repeatedly pointed out by several editors, including User:Levivich who now seems to be ignoring that part and contradicting themselves) where we use WIKIPEDIA TERMINOLOGY. So whatever that compromised article in Haaretz says doesn’t matter, because by Wikipedia definition, this was NOT a hoax. It was just a crappy article based on outdated sources. Volunteer Marek 05:16, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@ Cullen328 - I agree %100 - A hoax is defined as a clear and deliberate attempt to deceptively present false information as fact. Libel, vandalism, and honest factual errors are not considered hoaxes. There are no evidences that this article was created or ever edited to produce a hoax. None. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:26, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

How would one prove a "clear and deliberate attempt to deceptively present false information as fact" for 98% of the other entries on this list? In this case Haaretz is on-record saying that Piotrus "made the misleading claim" about "the EEML leak". Historian Jan Grabowski wrote extensively on the "technique of falsifying Polish history in Wikipedia" in several Wikipedia articles. On Warsaw concentration camp he wrote that it is a "falsification of the history of the Holocaust by Polish nationalists that lasted for over 10 years!" (Polish: "W wypadku hasła „KL Warschau” zafałszowywanie historii Zagłady przez polskich nacjonalistów trwało ponad 10 lat!".--185.127.21.114 (talk) 06:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC) — 185.127.21.114 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. blocked

A hoax is an act intended to deliberately deceive or trick, or something that has been established or accepted by fraudulent means.

For an act to be considered criminal, there must be demonstrable mens rea – guilty intent. No mens rea, no crime.

A conspiracy theory may be a misbegotten hypothesis, or even a frank delusion; but if its originator's intent was not to fraudulently disinform – to deliberately mislead, in the knowledge that he is spreading a lie for the purpose of gaining an advantage or causing a harm – then it is not a hoax.

So far there seems to be no evidence, in the case of the article in question, for the perpetration there of a hoax.

This item should be deleted from the "List of hoaxes on Wikipedia".

Nihil novi (talk) 09:30, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd be curious what you think about my argument a bit above; I am coming to a realization that almost everything on this page may be about as bad. Next to no incident reported seems to demonstrate, beyond a reasonable doubt, the intent to "deliberately mislead". This entire page seems like a textbook WP:ABF (this is not a "list of hoaxes on Wikipedia" but rather a "list of errors on Wikipedia that someone claimed may be a hoax"). There's no way of knowing whether most of the incidents reported here were attempts to "deliberately mislead" or more honest mistakes or misunderstandings of the purpose of this project ("wait, what do you mean I cannot post my fiction/original research/speculation/100% genuine word of God I received in my dream yesterday here?", etc.). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:41, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

RS say it was a hoax (and our longest-running hoax).Slatersteven (talk) 12:10, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Did you read the above conversation at all?? - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:48, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Do RS say it, that is all that matters. RS say it, end of story. They say it was a Hoax, some do not so?Slatersteven (talk) 15:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Have you heard of fake news or journalistic errors? This is not something we have to trust, this is based on claims we can easily verify since they are related to on wiki things, like diffs and such. The journalist made an error. We are not obliged to repeat it. Please read the discussion above for context to avoid needless repetition. (Also, news pieces like these are reliable up to a point - they are opinions of facts, not holy gosplels set in stone; see also WP:OPINION which notes that opinion pieces like this are WP:PRIMARY sources and those are accompanied by a warning note "primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them". And here we are dealing with such a misuse - an error being portrayed as a fact, primarily by indef-banned editor who is still commenting on this page right now... you may want to consider not taking their side, DFTT, etc.). PS. You are aware that there are hundreds of news stories (and even research pieces) from reliable sources about Wikipedia alone which are quite wrong about various topics? [13], or the stuff at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2021-07-25/In the media, Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2021-07-25/Recent research, Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-10-28/Op-ed and zillion of others. If we had a penny for each error about Wikipedia made by mass media we could probably double WMF operating budget :P --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Nor should we listen to nationlist sources seeking to justify or excuse a form of holocaust denial.Slatersteven (talk) 15:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I have no clue what you even mean. What nationalist sources? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven - What are you referring to? Links and elaborate, please. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:41, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

OK< so what sources then have been presented that says its not a hoax, I assmed some had been. Otherwise we have RS saying it, and nothing but wp:or contradicting it.Slatersteven (talk) 15:48, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

... (?...okay let’s leave it there) .. so you didn't read the above conversation... just take your time Slatersteven and read the entire discussion please, okay? It is all explained above with details - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

In addition to what GCB said above, I have to conclude you didn't read my reply to you above, either. It's an interesting world you live in, in which "reliable sources" are never, ever wrong (unless this is said in another RS). I'll end with this. Britannica is a reliable source, yes? Well, this may shake your world, but there are Wikipedia:Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia. Two of them were even reported by me 12 years ago. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

So no then no RS have been proproduced chanellging it, its all OR. Of course RS can be wrong, but we can only say they are when other RS challenge them. We cannot do it, no matter how wrong we think they are. That is policy.Slatersteven (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

This isn’t a Wikipedia article. WP:RS applies to Wikipedia articles, not non-articles about Wikipedia itself. Volunteer Marek 16:46, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, You know, we actually agree here. I said the very same above. We cannot say the RS are wrong even if they obviously are, that's OR. We are on the same page here. But what we can do - and do usually, based on my experience - is to remove the wrong claims from the articles without saying such claims were a mistake. (And just to be clear, I am not even advocating the removal of the information about the WCC error from the article - it was an error, and it attracted media attention; I am fine with it being mentioned in the WCC - but as an error, not as a hoax. And as an error and not a hoax it does not belong on this page, i.e. Wikipedia's lists of hoaxes.). Lastly, if you want to enforce RS here, please note that 90% of content of the list here is unreferenced as I've shown above, most seem to be plainly wrong (someone removes an error and calls it hoax with no proof that the error was intentional...). PS. Regading "no RS have been proproduced chanellging it", how about this, from the original Haaretz report: [14]: "Konieczny, who is a sociologist at Hanyang University, in South Korea... does not think it constitutes a “hoax.” I have been interviewed for that piece, they sadly ignored most of what I said (instead going with the narrative provided by then-already banned Icewhiz...) and misinterpreted some other parts (hence my letter to them here I encourage you to read), but at least they kept this part in. So here, we have an academic (me) going on a record in the RS and saying this term is wrong._{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Two wrong do not make a right, and no we do not wikilyawer with "we'll I have not said it is wrong, I am just removioeng it because it is". It is sources to RS it stayrs, if there is stuff that is unsourced, remove it.Slatersteven (talk) 09:45, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

After wading through much of the incredibly convoluted discussion above, I have arrived at the conclusion that we cannot justifiably claim that this article was a deliberate hoax. As such, it should be removed from the list. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:41, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• Please note it's not listed as a hoax article. Levivich 21:53, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Lepricavark Thank you. But please see what levivich replied (without a ping, hence my ping). Can anyone translate this logic to me: 1) an incident is included on a "list of hoaxes". 2) an editor claims "it is not a hoax". 3) another editor claims "it's ok, it's not listed as a hoax article" [but it is listed on a list of hoaxes]. There's some exercise in advanced semantics here I seem to be drawing blank on. Help? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:28, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, I think Levi's point was that the article was listed in the 'hoax statements in articles' section instead of the 'hoax articles' section. It may appear to be splitting hairs, but I think Levi's response was reasonable given that my comment focused on the article itself not being a hoax. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:34, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Lepricavark Ah. Well, I see, but yes, splitting hairs, that is also the case. My point is that it does not belong to any section in any article about "hoaxes" (although I have no objection to including it in an article about "errors"; nobody is disputing it was a long-lasting error, the bone of contention is the term "hoax" which while used by a RS seems simply inaccurate, given no evidence of this being a deliberative attempt to mislead has been presented). Can I gather you agree with my sentiment? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, yes. I don't think it belongs on this page. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 03:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I'll capsulize roughly below what it is all about, for those who don't want to read through all the exchanges above:

• The user produces an article utilizing information that at the time of the article creation was regarded as correct and sourced.
• That user dies.
• Some of the knowledge about the data the deceased user recorded grows.
• Nobody expresses much interest in the article to update it to reflect the new scholarly consensus.
• Finally, one user notices the outdated information.
• Another user (now globally banned) starts to make claims that the article has been deliberately created to introduce "hoax” information and lists the article here.
• This user gets a Topic Ban.
• Runs to the press and confuses the journalist with his story who writes the article about it. The article is reprinted by a few newspapers.
• Users are trying to change information recorded in bad faith on this page because there is no evidence the original data was recorded intentionally as a hoax.
• You are here..- GizzyCatBella🍁 23:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
  • That's not accurate. User:Halibutt created this article but--again--it's not listed as a hoax article, and I do not claim it was created to be a hoax article. It's listed as an article that has hoax statements, and Halibutt is not the user who added the hoax statements. This is discussed in more detail above. Levivich 00:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

No, that's accurate describtion from my readings. Who deliberately added false information to create a "hoax"? Links and evidence, please. - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-10-31/In the media, the error existed in the version created by Halibutt. Do you have any evidence/proof that Halibutt knew this information was false yet added it on purpose to mislead the readers? According to User:Poeticbent, who offers additional detail, "Trzcińska’s theory was not discredited until 2007, or three years after his new English article was uploaded". Unless we can prove Halibutt knew that information was false yet set out to deceive the readers, then all we can say is that he added an error (an error statement, if you prefer), not a hoax statement. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

What evidence is there that any of the listed articles were deliberate attempts to mislead? The London Review of Books, Haaretz, and other sources describe it as a deliberate attempt to mislead. What evidence is there that disputes that conclusion? What evidence have you reviewed in determining that it wasn't a deliberate attempt to mislead? Are you taking the Signpost's conclusion or Poeticbent's conclusion over the RS? Or has anyone investigated the actual history of the article for themselves? If editors are waiting for me to lay out the evidence, then how could they form a conclusion about whether it's a hoax or not before I have done so? Levivich 05:34, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

When sources describe things but fail to provide proof then they are bad journalism, fake news or hoaxes themselves. There's no defending this. Of course, nobody is questioning majority of the facts - there was an error, it got corrected after nearly 15 years. But no evidence that this is a hoax was presented. "Reliable sources" are not a carte blanche for saying whatever - as discussed above, reliable sources does not meet perfect or true, they make mistakes like everyone else. The onus is on you: show us the evidence this is a hoax, in the form of the admission of guilt from the editor or editors who added the error. Nothing more, nothing less. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The WP:ONUS is to gain consensus which was gained by WP:SILENCE when I added the entry two years ago and no one objected until just now, when VM, GCB, and you all suddenly showed up here. I'm not sure why now. Sure, consensus can change, and here we are discussing it. The onus isn't on me to prove anything. Wikipedia doesn't operate by editors proving things to other editors. We follow sources. Asking for an admission of guilt is a stupidly-high bar, which none of the entries would meet. But for me this is close enough:

And here I think it might be a good time and place to write how I now deeply believe all my writing assigning various non-Jewish victims of the Reich's WWII murder operations and camp system into the 'Holocaust' label, like I did especially with my own and still incredibly misleading article Holocaust victims, has been completely wrong. I was well meaning but wrong. It was really all different things just simply happening at the same time in the same regions, the entire concept of 'Holocaust victims' should be summed up as simply "most Jews under Hitler regime" with the rest being nothing but red-herring, and I'm sincerely sorry for unconsciously helping to propagate that ahistorical myth that now probably just won't die anytime soon.
— Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Newsletter/20170102/Interview

Levivich 13:13, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

What does this interview of an uninvolved editor has to do with anything? The ONUS is still on you to show us proof that this was a hoax. Once the possibility of an error in a RS has been raised, you need a better counterargument than "but the source is reliable so it cannot be wrong". PS. As for SILENCE, well Wikipedia:WEAKSILENCE. I for one didn't realize this Icewhizhism was still here, and thought it was removed long ago. If I knew this was still here rest assured I'd have made my case earlier. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Really because you tried before to get consensus for your removal of it and no one agreed with you which is why I put it back two years ago. [15], [16], Wikipedia talk:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia/Archive 2#Is Warsaw number a hoax?, [17]. Now that I've looked I see that I was wrong about SILENCE, there was a talk page discussion. Levivich 12:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Levivich, you're linking to Icewhiz edit warring to keep this in the article and Piotrus removing it as proof that "no one agreed with (Piotrus)'s removal". Seriously? "A banned editor tried to edit war this into the article so that means there was no consensus to remove it, so I put it back, without discussing anything myself" How does that make any sense? If anything it shows that you edit warred to put it back in without bothering to even post on talk. And now you're claiming "WP:SILENCE"? Come on. Volunteer Marek 18:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Icewhiz was ArbCom blocked in December 2019[18] and WMF banned in June 2020[19]. The edits were made in September 2019, when Icewhiz remained, ostensibly, an editor in good standing. Bans are not retroactive. And so, "A banned editor tried to edit war this into the article..." is misleading; they were not banned at the time. - Ryk72 ^talk 06:46, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is true - and I note that above saying that he obviously put it in before he was topic banned (which was in October 2019 - and honestly by September the fact that he was going to get a topic ban was pretty obvious). Volunteer Marek 06:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Appreciated. By way of suggestion, it might be better to focus on the nature of the content, and not its provenance. - Ryk72 ^talk 07:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Apropos: Once the possibility of an error in a RS has been raised, you need a better counterargument than "but the source is reliable so it cannot be wrong". No, I don't think this is a supportable viewpoint. The possibility of an error isn't sufficient; otherwise we'd be playing at epistemology all day like first year philosophy students. It would need to be demonstrated that the source was actually in error to override reliability. It is possible to do this; I've personally done so at least twice, both times with subsequent corrections from the referenced source. - Ryk72 ^talk 06:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

The funny thing here is that actually everyone agrees that it wasn't a "hoax". Levivich agrees it wasn't a hoax. Francois Robere agrees it wasn't a hoax (but rather a "conspiracy theory"). Yet they both wish to keep it because ... ... ... ?

And again, WP:RS applies to article space. This here is about an internal Wikipedia definition. Volunteer Marek 07:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that we benefit from establishing "WP:HOAX" as a term of art. And, hrm... "conspiracy theory" seems a little strange. @François Robere: Who are the conspirators? About what did they conspire? - Ryk72 ^talk 07:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

The conspiracy theory is described in https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v41/n09/christian-davies/under-the-railway-line as being a conspiracy to cover up the existence of the camp: "So, why was almost no one in Poland aware of the existence of this additional death camp in the centre of the country’s capital? The answer reads like a nationalist fever dream, in which all of the nation’s historic enemies play a role: the Germans covered it up because they didn’t want to pay reparations for Nazi crimes; the Jews covered it up because they didn’t want to give up their share of the global victims’ market; the Russians and Polish communists covered it up because they ran the facility after the war (in these circles, ‘Jew’ and ‘communist’ are often used interchangeably); Poles in the know covered it up because they were bribed or brainwashed by foreign interests."

The broader question

Some of this others have said above, but I'm putting this under a new section header to hopefully save others the inconvenience of reading through this whole mess, the vast majority of which is re-hashing of yearslong grudges better suited to arbspace than to this page.

The question for this forum to decide is, above all else, "What constitutes a hoax for the purposes of this list?" If editors feel that the answer is "Something where you can show that there was intentional deception", then it seems to me it would be much better to have a discussion about that broader question, rather than promoting a double standard for one of the most infamous and sensitive entries on this list.

Because we don't really have an answer to that general question, and maybe we should. If this entry is removed from the "hoax claims" list, then my find of the Louvre Pyramid spire hoax will top that list. But, as Piotrus notes above, I can't say conclusively that VK35 added that claim in bad faith. The best I can do is say that the initial diff looks shady and that the editor turned out to be a sock, which is closer to definitive than can be said for a lot of entries, many of which have no conduct-based evidence.

I don't think we can come up with a 100% clear-cut definition of "hoax". Take the content I removed from Matt Sorum. Some of it was demonstrably false. Some fails verification but could be true. Part of the reason I didn't list it here is that, based on a few things I found while researching the claims, I surmise that at least some of it may be oral history from Sorum's hometown. Is it a hoax to repeat the cool story your band teacher told you about what a famous musician did back when he went to this school? A story that may well be true, or at least resemble the truth, but was just never written down anywhere? If someone added the Sorum claims to this list I probably wouldn't revert them, but personally I didn't feel it worthy of listing. What about size of source? James Packer definitely didn't accuse any "Mr. Heaney" of misconduct; does that four-word false claim merit inclusion in this list? If so, that's our new second-oldest.

So if people think it's time to have a discussion about how broad and how intentional (or seemingly intentional) a hoax has to be in order to be included here, that may be a worthwhile discussion. Likewise something like Piotrus' suggestion of making this the list of errors on Wikipedia. Bickering over the Warsaw Concentration Camp in particular, though, just seems like a good way for this to wind up at AE. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 08:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tamzin Since I am quite interested in documenting and preserving history of Wikipedia (including stuff like WP:BJAODN and many others), my recommendation, per above, would be to vet each entry to see if we can find confirmation that it was a hoax (deliberate misinformation without any realm for a doubt). All entries that we are not sure about can be recorded under a "list of errors" which does not presume to guess what was the reason for that error. And we certainly have document cases of undisputable hoax, such as the Wikipedia Seigenthaler biography incident where the hoaxter that "admitted that he had posted the false biography because he believed Wikipedia to be "some sort of joke website"." I find the current low standards for "was this a hoax" on this page detrimental to those who really want to study Wikipedia's history by likely inflating the number of hoaxes, and misattributing various honest mistakes to some malice. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I think hoaxes can be divided into roughly the following levels of certainty:

• Confessed hoax: e.g. the Seigenthaler case or the Amelia Bedelia case
• Provable beyond a reasonable doubt due to:
  • Degree of elaborateness: e.g. Bicholim conflict or Vanda Varvara
  • User conduct history: hard to find an example since this list avoids talking too much about hoaxes' creators, but I'm sure that there's some that fit the bill
  • Evidence of intentional deception: e.g. [ctrl+f "source" in the list]
• Strong circumstantial evidence (in any of the above three categories), but where the possibility of good faith can't be entirely dismissed. This would cover the Louvre Pyramid example, IMO, although perhaps I'm biased.
• Clearly made up by someone, but not necessarily the one who added it: e.g. "Klanbake", John Major, etc.
• Possible oral history, urban legend, etc.: e.g. my Sorum example or, on this list, the Franklin Avenue Station claim
• Potentially an undocumented true statement: Broadly this could apply to anything shy of the "provable" category, but with many of these we can at least say that it's unlikely that no source would have picked up a given claim. But this is especially applicable with local-history stuff and claims about people who died within living memory. We see this all the time with BLPs, and may be biased against claims that just sound a bit more improbable than your standard unsourced "John Doe is married to Jane Doe" added by someone from John's hometown. But like, to pick a random example from my own life experience, I was at an event once where Sarah Stillman mentioned that she'd attempted a doctorate but changed paths after her laptop (and thus dissertation) was stolen on a train. That's the exact kind of unsourced claim, never repeated in any reliable nor unreliable source, that someone might want to add to this list because of how specific and unverifiable it is. But it does happen to be true (at least according to her).

Still thinking on what a good way forward would be (or whether a way forward is needed, compared to the status quo) but those are just some thoughts. One option would be requiring consensus to list anything not in the first two categories, although that could get a bit bureaucratic. Another option would be spinning off the hoax claims list (maybe as "false claims"), since that naturally tends more toward the lower categories on this list. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 16:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I think those are all good criteria. I would add "described by RS as a hoax" to the list. But I'm not sure that we need to change anything. AFAIK, this is the only entry on the list that has ever generated anything close to this level of controversy about whether or not an entry should be included. I'm not sure we need "new rules" as it were just because there is a dispute over one entry. Levivich 17:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Aha, no, described by RS as a hoax is sidestepping the issue. What we care here is what evidence did the RS has. Here's an academic paper on hoaxes on Wikipedia: [20] and it clearly states that "Hoaxes are delibirately fabricated falsehoods made to masquarade as truth." Not "hoaxes are articles that someone called a hoax". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The question is how fool-proof we want this list to be. Right now it is erring on the side of being too inclusive and containing entries that might not have been "deliberate attempts to mislead". I'd suggest cutting it only to cases where we are sure the intent was to mislead and splitting out others to a side list. Consider the case of a mentally ill individual creating an article about Moon being made out of green cheese. It is "Provable beyond a reasonable doubt to be false", but from their perspective, it is not a hoax, they honestly believe this is the case. Their article still misleads the readers, bt their intention was not "to deliberately misinform". In other words, we have to focus on the case of whether we can prove it was a deliberate attempt to misinform (the creator knew the information was false, but added it on purpose) or not. Everything else is obviously an error (well, there's also the "Potentially an undocumented true statement" as you note, another headache, which arguably is a third type of category here). Anyway, I think this page (list of hoaxes) should be only for category 1 (no doubt based on admission). Everything else goes to errors (or the third list of undocumented but potentially true statements on Wikipedia?). PS. Thinking about this more, I am willing to agree that admission of guilt is not the sole criteria. You make a valid point with the examples based on the "Degree of elaborateness". After all, in a court of law, admission is not always needed for conviction, evidence of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is fine too. I looked at the "Bicholim conflict or Vanda Varvara" examples and you are right, it's hard to imagine them being anything else but hoaxes (however, please consider my example of the mentally ill individual fully believing that their submissions are correct, even if their sources are mental disorders... this does muddle the water, if the hoaxer refuse to say what their intention is, sigh...). I'd therefore suggest making it clear for each entry, however, whether it was added based on admission or based on other evidence (admission is 100% proof, solid evidence is just 99% - after all, in real life and court of law, verdicts have been overturned when the once solid evidence was found lacking; I think we can at least safely discard the choice that any admission of hoax was false, nobody is torturing or otherwise pressuring people to give false confessions here :P). As for "User conduct history" or "Evidence of intentional deception" I am not sure I fully follow - until we find specific examples to discuss I am not sure I can comment yay or nay here. Once we get to the "where the possibility of good faith can't be entirely dismissed" level, I think WP:AGF takes precedence and such an entry cannot be qualified as hoax, but just an an error. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I want to think more about some of your bigger points, but just to answer your question: Regarding "evidence of intentional deception", I'm thinking of cases where there's clear misrepresentation of a source. Some source misrepresentation may be accidental, but there's many cases where you can say beyond a reasonable doubt that it was intentional, for instance if someone cites a news article that doesn't even mention the subject, or cites a book that in fact contradicts the claim being made. Other considerations might be something like a trollish edit summary ("added TOTALLY TRUE facts about John Doe"). And as to "user conduct history", I'm thinking of something like an editor who was proven to have engaged in other hoaxes, or has otherwise forfeited the protections of AGF. This is arguably true of Dereks1X/VK35, of Louvre infamy, since they were banned for, among other things, "calculated deception", and then kept socking for over a decade. Not necessarily entitled to the same AGF as if it turned out that a decade ago you or I inserted an error somewhere due to a misunderstanding.

I'll also say, I think the mental illness angle is too niche to worry much about. I'm sure we've all seen our fair share of users trying to list themself somewhere as a prophet or messiah. And there we can say "Yeah, ill, not hoaxing." But if the author of Vanda Varvara really believed she was real, I think for our purposes as Wikipedians trying to study hoaxes—not doctors or therapists—that doesn't really matter. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 05:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Tamzin, I agree. Here though I don't think there's any evidence of intent to mislead. It's not "misrepresenting sources", it was just relying on bad and outdated sources back in the very early days of Wikipedia. Volunteer Marek 06:57, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

VM, just a note that you are talking about the "warsaw" case, I think, and in this section we are looking at the big picture (this entire page and its purpose), not just this particular example we are kicking about in the section above. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:38, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tamzin: No hurry. Let me however keep playing the devil's advocate (with AGF in mind). 1) "if someone cites a news article that doesn't even mention the subject" -> this could be a simple copy paste error... 2) "cites a book that in fact contradicts the claim being made" -> ditto, or a comprehension error (bonus points for remembering not everyone contributing to English Wikipedia is fluent in English...). 3) "a trollish edit summary" -> the example given is fair, but where do we draw the line? 4) "an editor who was proven to have engaged in other hoaxes" -> ok, that's pretty reasonable, fool me once, shame on me, etc. 5) "or has otherwise forfeited the protections of AGF" - ekhm, mind entertaining me and considering this: how about an editor who engaged in offline harassment that was proven to a point he got himself banned not just by ArbCom but also by WMF? Would you trust any controversial claim they'd make based on more or less "trust me, I know" rationale? 6) regarding the case of Dereks, this is the WP:DUCK grounds. It is almost certainly a hoax, given the account has been shown to be a vandal (faking credentials, etc.). But is this something that a court of law would say has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt? How strict do we want to be? And yes, the mentally ill angle is similar. In the end, the category for "very likely hoax" is pretty much a question of do we want to err on the side of caution or not. I expect that for every 10 "likely hoaxes" we find, 9 will be hoaxes, 1 will be something else. In the court of law, 1 bad sentence out of 10 would be too serious; better to let 9 criminals walk than have one innocent man behind bars (I guess?). On wiki, hmmm. As a scientist working with data, I hate "bad data", but mhm, what is better from the perspective of someone interested in accurately describing the history of Wikipedia? Let's see what others think. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:37, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I can't get into everything that was said here so excuse me for being brief, but I do want to state for the record that while I agree that the WCC can be more accurately described as a "conspiracy theory", until such time as we have a "list of conspiracy theories..." or "list of evidence-free and/or pseudoscientific claims...", I strongly object to removing it from this, or any other list. The semantics of it are less important than the fact that it was a substantial and persistent error, and should serve as a glaring warning of the failings of our editorial system. Cheers. François Robere (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@François Robere Seriously, Francois, you know I don't think the interaction ban you guys have is the best idea but you really need to stop playing with fire and commenting on the edges of topic that GCB is involved in. First ANI, now here. Surely there are things the two of you can do that do not involve one another? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I wonder how much useful improvement the encyclopaedia would have received if the editors who have contributed to the above discussion had instead put 10% of the time they have spent on work towards improving the encyclopaedia. JBW (talk) 09:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

New coverage on hoaxes in Haaretz

Haaretz published These Far-right Nationalists Didn’t Like What They Read Online About World War II – So They Rewrote History yesterday evening. It's on the probe into the Croatian Wikipedia but also has significant content on the English Wikipedia and the Holocaust.72.179.185.130 (talk) 11:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC) — 72.179.185.130 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Including:

"For example, I previously reported on the longest hoax on Wikipedia, part of a major Polish disinformation effort on the encyclopedia. In that case, too, the far-right hoax was based around a wartime concentration camp: the thoroughly debunked claim that during World War II the Nazis operated an extermination camp in Warsaw for the mass murder not of Jews but of ethnic Poles."

"Despite the lack of a historical record, Wikipedia contributors affiliated with the right-wing Polish narrative pushed out the falsehood that the Nazi gas chambers in the Polish capital were used to murder 200,000 ethnic Poles. The number 200,000 was based on a single eyewitness quoted by an amateur far-right historian."

"Despite historical evidence showing there was no gas chamber in Warsaw, the false claim and death toll appeared as facts on English Wikipedia for almost 15 years. This false information spread to dozens of other articles and over a dozen languages."

"In Croatian Wikipedia, a similar dynamic played out: The article for the Jasenovac concentration camp and others related to it not just rewrote history but disparaged academics who researched Croatian war crimes in the 20th century. This is almost identical to events in the Polish case. There, the article for the Jedwabne pogrom in 1941 was frequently edited, rewritten and distorted to minimize violence by Poles against Jews."

"The article for the Polish historian investigating the Jedwabne massacre, Jan Tomasz Gross, was also targeted and his reputation tarnished. Articles about other historians researching Polish crimes against local Jews, like Jan Grabowski, were also reworked. Both historians have been prosecuted for their research by proxies of the Polish government, indicating an alignment between the targets of populist regimes and their ideological bedfellows on Wikipedia."

"As with the Polish case, the Croatian camp was only one facet in a much wider disinformation effort: historical revisionism in the service of present-day populists. And that effort is at least implicitly endorsed by local politicians."

"In both the Polish and Croatian cases, the nationalist narrative was enforced by portraying the two nations only as victims of the Nazis – not as possible collaborators – on top of a reworking of Wikipedia articles to fit contemporary political needs. In Poland, this historical revisionism is actually a policy of the ruling Law and Justice Party, which has attempted to ban research into Polish crimes and whose platform includes a section on countering what it calls Poland’s “pedagogy of shame” regarding the war. "

72.179.185.130 (talk) 11:20, 5 August 2021 (UTC) — 72.179.185.130 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• 2019 article based on an interview with a banned Wikipedian. [21] - Haaretz by Omar Benjakob
• 2021 illustration and reference to the same article from 2019 based on an interview with a banned Wikipiedian [22] - Haaretz by Omar Benjakob

This is nothing new regarding the issue under discussion above, but thank you for the new article's link. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The Croatian Wikipedia scandal seems quite interesting, although not very relevant to this talk page. I just hope Omar hasn't made as many errors in reporting about it as he did about the Polish issues the quack-quack "anon" cited above, since they are like 80% fake news (well, we can just generously say errors, I guess)... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:42, 5 August 2021 (UTC)