Talk:Czech Republic

Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Czech_Republic#Name section

I am really, really, really, really (really) sorry to start another thread about the name of this country, but I find it odd that this section doesn't mention "Czech Republic". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Makes perfect sense. Largoplazo (talk) 00:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Removed and readded. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

"but Czech Republic was selected for use as the official short name as well as the long one. " This sounds thoroughly ridiculous in English. You are saying that the same form is both long and short. That is literally impossible. What is possible, is "no short name was selected, with the long form being used in situations that would normally call for the short form." --Khajidha (talk) 18:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Whatever can be supported by a good source, but this section should mention where "Czech_Republic" came from. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

In a table of countries, you might have columns for "Capital", "Largest City", "Population", "Full Formal Name", "Name Usually Used for Repeated Mentions in Text, At Least After First Mention", "Area", "Currency", etc. The fact that, in a given country, the capital might be the largest city doesn't mean they are suddenly not distinct concepts with their own designations, that the two columns collapse into one; that that country has a capital but not a largest city, or vice versa. Likewise, "Full Formal Name" and "Name Usually Used ..." are two separate concepts that exist independently of whether they're the same for a given country. It's easier to refer to these as "long form" and "short form", and that may make it sound silly to you, but what they denote are nevertheless distinct concepts both of which warrant being specified whether or not they're the same for a given country. Largoplazo (talk) 19:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

You did notice that I gave you a way to refer to these two distinct concepts without using silly phrasing? Calling these concepts "long name" and "short name" makes sense in other cases, but not here. Using those terms here simply invites ridicule.--Khajidha (talk) 00:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Name Change

Why has no one changed the name of the Title yet? Ranamode (talk) 17:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ at the top of this page. CMD (talk) 17:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

See related discussions at Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 9 (and earlier, if that's not enough). If you think sources support you, start a WP:RM#CM and make your arguments per WP policy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:14, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Points to consider before beginning the latest of many discussions on this topic, summarizing what can be absorb from a review of the earlier ones:

• First, a question: How did "Czech Republic" become wrong, let alone arrogant as some have called it? It is still the formal long-form name of the country! It hasn't been discarded. Sticking with "Czech Republic" isn't the same as titling the article about Sri Lanka "Ceylon".
• The applicable Wikipedia guideline at WP:COMMONNAME indicates that the title should change when the replacement title is being used more frequently in current reliable sources written in English. Many people have provided reliable sources using "Czechia", but with no indication that those sources outnumber sources still using "Czech Republic".
• Pointing to specific sources like Google Maps that adopted "Czechia" early and asking "Why don't we follow their approach?" doesn't help because (a) this talk page isn't the place to debate Wikipedia's general approach to article naming, and (b) there's no reason why Wikipedia's approach should copy another publisher's approach that they adopted for their purposes rather than having its own approach for its own purposes.
• Anybody who wants to formally request a move may do so but it will lead to no change unless it's demonstrated that "Czechia" has overtaken "Czech Republic" in recent reliable sources written in English. Until then, it isn't worth the trouble. Anyone who considers submitting such a request is best advised to do their homework first and not bother unless they're able to kick off the discussion with a solid Wikipedia-policy-based case to support the change.

Largoplazo (talk) 17:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Look, I want to say even if Czechia is less popular then Czech Republic, Wikipedia has a big role in that, if you look up Czechia or Czech Republic Wikipedia shows up first, Wikipedia is in the Top 10 of most visited websites, it’s a source for many people. It has a role in how people say the Czech country. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

And that role is to tell people what it is called in English. Not what you think it should be called. --Khajidha (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd venture that 99.999% of people who mention the country have never seen the article on it on Wikipedia. It's as though you were suggesting that before Wikipedia nobody even knew that the country existed. Largoplazo (talk) 10:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 July 2021

I would like to propose a change of english translation of the name of the national anthem of Czech Republic on this wikipedia site. It's translated here as "Where is my home", but actually it should be "Where my home is". Unfortunately, I don't have any reliable source but Iam Czech and the meaning of the anthem is to show Where my home is not to ask Where is my home?. Where is my home? is a question but the original has no question mark after home, it's just Kde domov můj - Where my home is. I hope that what I wrote makes a little bit of sence. Thank you. 194.228.68.37 (talk) 15:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

The individual page for Kde domov můj uses the translation "Where My Home Is" in every single instance, with what looks like a a reliable source as the first refernce in the article. ― Levi_OPtalk 16:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2021

Czech Republic → Czechia – As seen by the balance of consensus in the recent RFC there has been a shift in viewpoint on this matter on Wikipedia, and this combined with the frequent comments on this talkpage by users suggest that there may be consensus for a move to Czechia.

The policies speak in favour of this move - WP:CONCISE, WP:UCRN (Major international organisations: the EU, the UN ), and WP:WIAN (for example maps: Google maps, Apple Maps, Bing/Microsoft Maps, Open Street Maps). Hentheden (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Question: What recent RFC? Which came to what conclusion that involves this? Largoplazo (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm assuming this one, but that's a guess: Talk:Czech_Republic/Archive_9#RfC_about_the_name_of_this_country. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:17, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Ah. If that's the case, then it does appear that opinion was evenly split, but then that's before evaluating whether those who favored the move provided adequate grounds to justify it. As everyone should know, a discussion is WP:NOTAVOTE, not a simple tally of responses for and against. Largoplazo (talk) 11:45, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment The point of citing guidelines in a change request is to then demonstrate why they lead to the desired conclusion. Instead, you've only pulled out the usual set of very few links that have been trotted out time and time again to no avail because Wikipedia's guidelines WP:UCRN, which I think most people refer to as WP:COMMONNAME, doesn't provide for changing the titles on geographical articles according to the choices of a very few map-providing websites. If those very few links didn't suffice before, they aren't suddenly sufficient to meet the guidelines now.

Comment to all Be aware that WP:COMMONNAME governs. It calls, not a name for which you can find many uses in reliable sources, but the name most used in reliable sources. After all, "Czech Republic" is also still found in reliable sources. In addition, avoid approaches that others have followed that involve being offended that we haven't switched to the new name. This argument is always offered as though the old name, "Czech Republic", had been abandoned and that Czechs find that name offensive, which is ridiculous. It is still the official long-form name of the country. If you hate the term "Czech Republic" then be angry at the Czech government for keeping it, not at Wikipedia. Finally, whichever name you think the article should have, remember that a discussion like this is WP:NOTAVOTE, not a simple tally. The substance of the discussion needs to provide adequate support for the requested change.

Final comment: Before anyone gets upset with me, thinking I hate "Czechia" and that I'm trying to have my way by preempting the discussion and scaring everyone away, let me announce, as I have before, that I like "Czechia". I've thought since the birth of that country that that should be its name. When they adopted it as the official short form of the name, I said "Finally!" I'm just tired of endless discussions here that go off in all directions other than a direction that would justify that change here under the prevailing guidelines. Largoplazo (talk) 11:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support Czechia is the correct English name used by English Google maps and the EU. Ale3353 (talk) 15:46, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Czech Republic" is also a correct English name. The Czech government say so. If you disagree, (a) where did you get the idea that "Czech Republic" isn't correct, and (b) where did you get the idea that Google and the EU are in charge of all decisions about the "correct" names for countries? Largoplazo (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose We are still presented as the Czech Republic at all major sporting events this year: 2021 IIHF World Championship, UEFA Euro 2020, and ongoing 2020 Summer Olympics. The process of transformation to Czechia is far from over and it cannot be said that it is a more common name now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FromCzech (talk • contribs) 25 July 2021, 17:08 (UTC)

I do not think it is a good example. We have Iran and no Iran (the Islamic Republic of). Iran is also presented by its formal name at ongoing Olympics.--Martin Tauchman (talk) 17:57, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know how presentation of Iran relates to the topic. We are presented as the Czech Republic and that's how the world know us. And let's be honest, we are presented to the world more often through sport than politics, at least outside Europe. FromCzech (talk) 18:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

But is a sport shirt a reliable source? PS: I have wanted to show a precedent of solution.--Martin Tauchman (talk) 19:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Nomen omen, "FromCzech". Iran's name at Olympic games does not affect Wikipedia. What's that. Chrz (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The Czech Olympic Team just posted a video called Prince of Czechia on its official Youtube channel. While the decision of what to put on today's jerseys has sadly been taken a few RMs ago, the new name is not something wholly avoided by the olympic team. --Jiří Boháč 7:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Rename it already. The usage of the official political name can even sound bizarre, especially when the name "Czech Republic" appears next to Slovakia (officially the Slovak Republic) in the text. I am glad that Czechia officially recognized Czechia as its official short name in 2016, although it has been resisted since the 1990s (just as its Czech variant – Česko). As time goes on, the public begins to accept this short name, including Google Maps, Bing, European Union, United Nations, International Air Transport Association, Oxford Essential World Atlas (since the eighth edition), World Health Organization, and Worldometer. However, it is a small and insignificant country that not many people know. For many of them, Wikipedia is the main source of information about the country, and this article is the first one that comes up if you google "Czechia" or any other variants of the name of the country. Until the title of the article is changed, it's clear that the short name won't be used as much as it could, especially when many Czechs (including some of the sports organizations) are fighting against the short name simply because of personal taste – just as they did with the Czech variant (Česko). At the top of that, since the variants of Czechia (Česko) are commonly used as the name of the article about the country in other language variants, it makes sense to use the short geographical name here as well. --Unloosek (talk) 17:32, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Your points are pretty much irrelevant. 1) "sound(s) bizarre ... next to Slovakia". Only if you expect English usage to follow some strict rule about short names vs long names. Sounds perfectly normal to me. 2) "Until the title of the article is changed, it's clear that the short name won't be used as much as it could". This has it completely backwards. Until it is used the most, the article title won't change. 3) "Commonly used as the name of the article ... in other language(s)". Usage in other languages has no bearing on usage in English.--Khajidha (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I find it an odd notion that people these days are constantly looking things up on Wikipedia before talking or writing about them, even things that they're already perfectly familiar with and have no reason to look up. You imply that when somebody is about to refer to the country, they very commonly think "I'd better refer to the Wikipedia article on it to make sure I'm not saying anything incorrect." I, in contrast, would bet that fewer than 1% of people who have occasion to talk about Czechia have ever looked it up on Wikipedia. After all, people talked and wrote about things long before Wikipedia came along, and still feel comfortable, for the most part, continuing to do so without looking everything up. So the idea that more than a few people know the title of Wikipedia's article about the country, let alone that it influences English usage worldwide, seems outlandish.

Anyway, you're saying we should rename the article because people aren't using "Czechia" very much and Wikipedia somehow should have a position on what people should call the country and should take the lead in persuading them to call it that. This is 100% the opposite of the approach and rationale provided for us in the guidelines. Wikipedia reflects usage, it doesn't take a position on usage and try to lead it. Largoplazo (talk) 22:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The official name of our state is the Czech Republic. The name Czechia is a tolerated alternative name. Please keep the legal name of our country given in the constitution of the Czech Republic. Thank you. --Gampe (talk) 18:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• It is not "tolerated", it was made the official short name for the country in 2016. The point some people are missing is that as far as being official is concerned, it isn't either/or; "Czechia" didn't replace "Czech Republic", it supplements it, it has been prescribed for use. Both names are official. The only issue here is whether it has become the more common name. Largoplazo (talk) 22:33, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

So Germany should be called the Federal Republic of Germany, Slovakia should be called the Slovak Republic, Poland should be called the Republic of Poland, and Austria should be called the Republic of Austria? --Unloosek (talk) 18:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

No. All country articles should be titled what they are usually called in English. For Germany, etc, that is the short name. For this country, it happens to be the long name. I can't understand why this is considered a problem. --Khajidha (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Shouldn't North Macedonia be called just Macedonia then? When there was a proposal to rename the article to its current name (after the Prespa Agreement), one of the arguments against it was that "North Macedonia" is not the most commonly used name. --Unloosek (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I thought it should have been at Macedonia all along, but that argument is for that page, not here. --Khajidha (talk) 18:52, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Kiev/Kyiv took 2 years of "a campaign". Macedonia was true name change. Czechia talks were here long before 2016 adoption, but the situation outside Wikipedia moves slowly. Right kind of slowly to see that it is not "forced" :) Chrz (talk) 18:55, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Both are official, French Republic and France. Same with Czech Republic and Czechia. Constitution written in Czech - Has NO effect on Czech Wikipedia, so, very strange reasoning on enwiki. Chrz (talk) 18:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

It is the legal name. It was approved by ČÚZK. The ČÚZK has got mandate by the law 359/1992 Coll. to do it.--Martin Tauchman (talk) 20:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Why? No momentum now, it will be opposed by the same people as always (commonname blahblahblah) and new 12-month-or-more-moratorium will be imposed. Wasted attempt for next months. What happened since last attempt? More cool sources? Or just (maybe) more supporters on Wikipedia? I suggest to close this as "not meant seriously" and save this attempt for later date when some kind of "big win" for Czechia comes -- not now, some randomly chosen date, when nothing big changed since last try apart from a notion than more supporters exists than last time. This is not voting thing but argument based thing. It was meant well (I guess) but it does not help, the opposite, wastes attempt :( Chrz (talk) 18:51, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I am looking forward to the move. However, I agree that this attempt will have the same outcome and undermine future efforts. If there is a possibility to withdraw the request, it will be great if @Hentheden would consider doing so. --Unloosek (talk) 19:16, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I hope @Hentheden: replies. And brings new peviously unknown killer argument and outlawyer this, because this all was here before and never ever won it for Czechia. Chrz (talk) 19:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't see how this would undermine future efforts, nor why I should withdraw the request. Nor should I be trying to outlawyer the other side, although I have to admit that that seems necessary on Wikipedia these days. The fundamental argument I have in favour of this change is that it would make Wikipedia better (which is ofc subjective), removing clunky constructions in the titles of a lot of pages (which would of course require a separate, massive RM) and in their texts. The nature of wikipedia policy is such that those opposing will always be able to find something to back them up, and those in favour will be able to do the same - in which case it might be useful to remind ourselves of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. I do think we are closer though - the usage of the name now on most mapping services, which wasn't the case before, strengthens the arguments in favour. I'd also like to reiterate that consensus can change. Just because we've discussed something before is no reason not to discuss it again. Hentheden (talk) 10:00, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

In other words, your fundamental arguments are the same that have already been rejected and you've chosen to make them again instead of taking your cue from previous debate conclusions and waiting until circumstances had changed so that "Czechia" would be the correct outcome in conformance with the guidelines. Also, noting that what would make Wikipedia "better" is subjective amounts to making an argument and then immediately acknowledging that it isn't an argument. Largoplazo (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Your invocation of WP:IAR is the bottom line here. Look, if you don't like the guidelines, it would be helpful if you would go to Wikipedia talk:Article titles (the talk page for the page that includes WP:UCRN) and take it up there instead of making this article's talk page a forum for airing your general discontent with the existing guidelines. Largoplazo (talk) 11:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Those "clunky constructions" don't seem that way to me, because they follow the phrasing used "in the wild" by the sources we follow. --Khajidha (talk) 11:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: The use of "Czechia" over "Czech Republic" in reliable sources isn't overwhelming enough to in my opinion to change the article title. The New York Times uses Czech Republic, Associated Press uses Czech Republic, Euronews uses Czech Republic, Reuters uses Czech Republic, The New Zealand Herald uses Czech Republic, The Times uses Czech Republic, The Telegraph uses Czech Republic, Deutsche Welle uses Czech Republic, Encyclopædia Britannica uses Czech Republic. Czech Republic still seems to be more widely used. The use of Czechia appears to be mainly from governmental organizations as commercial electronic maps.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 18:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support – The name Czechia is also standardised by ISO and the United Nations. The majority of countries are referred by their short (geographical) names. I think that the WP:COMMONNAME governs should be expounded much generally in those cases to keep the uniformity of the articles. I can also mention Eswatini that has been renamed from Swaziland in spite of the fact that Swaziland is still widely used. For Czech speakers, I could also recommend a book written by Dr Čizmárová. The name is also used by companies (as was already mention). Let me add several additional links. Additionally, I would like to mention that the article deals also with the history of the territory of modern Czechia and it would not be correct to call it as ‘History of the Czech Republic’ since the Czech Republic has been founded in 1993. PS: I was not able to link Mapy.cz because of the spam filter. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 19:06, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

PS: I have forgot to add CIA World Factbook and Office of the Historian. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 16:15, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

1) "The majority of countries are referred by their short (geographical) names. " Because that is what actual usage uses. The only consistency that we are interested in is consistency with actual usage. 2) All country articles deal with history from before the establishment of their current political states, so I don't see why the Czech Republic would be any different. --Khajidha (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

But the formal name describes the current state. If we have the article about France, the French Republic, Kingdom of France or French Empire could be referred as ‘France’. But could we refer to the Lands of the Bohemian Crown by the term ‘Czech Republic’? --Martin Tauchman (talk) 19:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

We would simply use the relevant names in the relevant sections. The article could still be at "Czech Republic" or "History of the Czech Republic". --Khajidha (talk) 19:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

All this was here before in previous attempts to move and did not help, why should it now? Official places and maps does not concern wikipedia('s opposers) when evaluating common name, not impressed at all. Newspaper and what people search for on Google is the key. Maybe it is consistent with other states, maybe Wikipedia sets its own custom made obstacles for Czechia to overcome. Or other states had advantages in favour which Czechia does not have (Eswatini English speaking, newspaper switched soon, North Macedonia pretty much the same and bothlong and short name changed). Chrz (talk) 16:33, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

"maybe Wikipedia sets its own custom made obstacles for Czechia to overcome" This right here is the root of your problem. You see the name change as a goal to be desired. And that's the wrong way 'round. You shouldn't even be asking if Czechia has "become common enough" or "what will it take to change the name". The question isn't "can we change it now?", it is "has usage changed?" If "Czechia" becomes the most common name, it will be blindingly clear in the sources.--Khajidha (talk) 16:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

You know exactly how I mean it, no need for this. That bliding clearness are that obstacles. That-and-that state did not need that and that to be considered "blidingly clear" but in case of Czechia it is an issue (sport jersey, name of ministry, 51+ % in Google ngram and trends....) A lot of states found some loophole to skip all this, so maybe there's one for Czechia too. So "are we there yet? Does THIS help?" is typically asked by supporters of the change, not the opposers, and no difference here, so what. Chrz (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually I don't know how you mean it. And all these other cases that you seem to find so confusing seem blindingly obvious to me. And I am STILL (after years and years and years) waiting for someone to explain why anybody cares what some other language calls their country. I not only do not care what the word for my country is in Czech, I don't even consider myself to have the right to care. It is of no more importance to me than what the words for "red", "circle", "happy", and "mountain" are. The idea of telling another language community that "you have to call my country such-and-such" would never occur to me. --Khajidha (talk) 17:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

You were told many many times, after years and years either you do not want to understand it or you would not accept any reason at all. From your current post I guess you were against Eswatini, North Macedonia, Kyiv, and your opinion about red happy cirle mountain did not matter. So why bother explaining role of English and role of Czech in the world to you AGAIN. We will discuss it with someone who was willing to change more obvious and straightforward cases, not with someone who was against everything with his "I do not care about Czech, Macedonian, Ukrainian languages thus they should not care about MY language" type of attitude. It is not an discussion "you should call me this way" but "country IS called these two names, which one to choose for Wikipedia - from maps, newspaper, authorities, you know, encyclopedia type of sources to write encyclopedia, or elsewhere". Czechia happened, it already is in English, so I do not get comments whoich suggest that I want to implant something into English. It already IS there. Chrz (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@Khajidha we shouldn't be devaluing the contributions of other editors purely because they do not have English as a mother tongue. The English wikipedia, for better or worse, is the 'main' wikipedia that most people are going to look at, and with English being the global lingua franca most people are going to know and care what their country is called in English. @Chrz you are entirely right in bringing up that WP:ENGVAR got a mention in the Eswatini RM discussion, and I think a similar argument could be made here:

A significant proportion of the population of the Czechia can speak English (good luck finding a statistic for that), but I can imagine that this article not only has WP:TIES to Czechia but also Europe as a whole, particularly Brussels where a great deal of Czech governance today occurs because of the European Union. Therefore, when looking at common usage we should avoid discriminating against Euro English in favour of American or British English (per Wikipedia:ENGVAR), and we should really be looking at continental pan-European publications and English-language Czech publications, not the Guardian or Washington Post. Of the three that come to mind, namely Euractiv, Politico, and Radio Prague International, Euractiv and Radio Prague International use Czechia, while Politico.eu uses Czech Republic, meaning that by my quick survey more than 50% of relevant news sources use it. If anyone could expand upon this short list, please do! Hentheden (talk) 10:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

ENGVAR does not apply to non-native usage. As for your "most people are going to know and care what their country is called in English", again I don't understand the care. If you tell me that the name for my country in your language is "Smedlap", that would affect me no more than the word for anything else. I'd simply say "Cool, nice to know" and use it. --Khajidha (talk) 11:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

This one does not get importance of English in the world and why "Republic" name is clunky. Of course it would improve work, one name for all instead of all that constructions. This is where it is different from Cote d'Ivoire - there already was one term for all without need of another unification, it already was unified. Also ENGVAR may apply, as Czechia being part of union where English is language of the EU. And also EU documents use Czechia predominantly, look it up. Czechia is present in style guide and is used as choice no.1 like France or Germany. 14:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I get the importance of English in the world, but when you decide to use a foreign language you just have to accept the way that they do things. --Khajidha (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

No, it is not a matter of English, but matter of English Wikipedia and how it does its thing. English language uses synonyms, English Wikipedia chose to bend English and use only one proper noun for each country (and one period) and throw away up to 49.9 % of English usage. So there, there's difference between English way and English Wikipedia way. Yes yes, your reply will be "And you want us to throw away about 90 % usage of Czech Republic in favour of Czechia and bend English more than we do here." Well not exactly. It is a matter of what you leave out. Do you follow encyclopedia sources and throw away newspaper or the other way around, but something ends under the table anyway... Prioritization of sources etc. Chrz (talk) 14:41, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Same arguments as last failed attempt. It is quite foolish to expect different outcome. Two things can help: 1] more and more reliable sources (and declining usage of Czech Republic) 2] change of Wikipedia policies. Neither happened. Chrz (talk) 19:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The guideline is what it is. If you disagree with the guideline, take it up and attempt to seek consensus at the guideline's talk page. Until it changes, our discussion now is based on the guideline as it is now, which is, after all, the point of having guidelines.

As for "The majority of countries are referred by their short (geographical) names": If sources most commonly refer to most countries by their short names, but most commonly refer to this country by its long name, then Wikipedia titles should be inconsist in exactly the same way. Wikipedia reflects what reliable sources are doing, it doesn't fix what they're doing as though we know better. Largoplazo (talk) 22:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The New York Times uses Eswatini, Associated Press uses Eswatini, Euronews uses Eswatini, Reuters uses Eswatini, The Telegraph uses Eswatini, The Sydney Morning Herald uses Eswatini, Deutsche Welle uses Eswatini, Encyclopædia Britannica uses Eswatini, The Hindu uses Eswatini, Haaretz uses Eswatini, The Irish Times uses Eswatini, The Japan Times uses Eswatini, Wall Street Journal uses Eswatini, Die Zeit uses Eswatini, the CIA World Factbook uses Eswatini, The Straits Times uses Eswatini. These are all major national/international news sources. I'm not seeing that Swaziland is still widely used in reliable sources.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 02:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Are you trying to show that "Czech Republic" should be renamed "Eswatini", or have you wandered into the wrong discussion? Largoplazo (talk) 10:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC) Never mind, sorry, I'd missed Bait30's intent as stated below. Largoplazo (talk) 11:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

He reasoned that Czech Republic should be moved to Czechia because Swaziland got moved to Eswatini. I'm showing that Swaziland got moved because reliable sources show that Eswatini is the COMMONNAME. Czechia does not have the same level of usage.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 11:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I get it. Sorry! Largoplazo (talk) 11:42, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The OP claims that Czechia meets the standard of WP:COMMONNAME, but provides no significant evidence of this. Instead they cherry pick the sources that best suit their argument. Common usage does not mean usage by international organisations constrained by the vagaries of diplomacy. Nor does it mean usage by internet mapping companies. It means common usage by actual people. I note that, for example, Google Ngrams still heavily prefers Czech Republic by an overwhelming margin, as does Google Trends. Notably, Czech Republic is more common than Czechia in all countries measured on Google Trends - English-speaking or otherwise - including in the Czech Republic itself.

it is worth being clear that, in the RFC the OP (presumably) refers to, there was "overwhelming (near-unanimous) consensus against" the OP's proposal. If this represents "a shift in viewpoint on this matter on Wikipedia" then it is a shift away from Czechia and toward Czech Republic. Kahastok talk 19:08, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Where do you see ‘a shift away from Czechia and toward Czech Republic’? --Martin Tauchman (talk) 19:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

On 29 November 2019, there was no consensus to move. On 7 March 2021 the RFC was closed with overwhelming consensus against this change. One might argue that drawing any conclusions from the RFC is difficult because the proposal was so vague. But the OP claims that, "as seen by the balance of consensus in the recent RFC there has been a shift in viewpoint on this matter on Wikipedia". This can only conceivably refer to the shift from no consensus in 2019 to an overwhelming consensus against the change in 2021. Kahastok talk 20:06, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I was not sure. I do not think that it is possible to statistically evaluate arguments. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 20:17, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. --Khajidha (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Nothing has changed since the previous move request, and "Czech Republic" is still the prevailing term. This move is not needed in my opinion. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 20:39, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I suggest that when this RM is closed, we add a 1-year moratorium like last time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Resounding agreement from me. Largoplazo (talk) 22:35, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Keep RM open at least for 2 weeks, it is summer vacation time, maybe someone has an ace in pocket, some kind of precedent or whatever. I said it, now we see it, this RM is badly timed and serves effectivelly only as an excuse to prolongate moratorium. Let's hope it was not Hentheden's intention when he started this... Chrz (talk) 05:49, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• I agree. There are holidays until the end of August in Czechia and other countries (see). --Martin Tauchman (talk) 06:13, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Could you please cite the policy that says that we systematically leave requested moves open for longer than normal in July and August? In the absence of such a policy, I see no reason why we shouldn't treat this RM in the same way as any other. Kahastok talk 20:34, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

And olympic games are in TV, distracting editors :) I do not need everything written in policies, otherwise I would starve to death because none of wikipedia policies say I should eat during my wikipedia editing :P Chrz (talk) 20:57, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Could you please cite the policy that says we cannot do that or write a reason not to do that?--Martin Tauchman (talk) 12:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• WP:NOTCOMPULSORY allows you sufficient mealtime. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:53, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Fantastic, Wikipedia remembered this but it does not think of vacations. OK... Chrz (talk) 12:59, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

One could argue that vacations allows more time for editing, at least it doesn't necessarily prevent it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Eswatini and North Macedonia were moved on the first day of their name change without being WP:COMMONNAME. Obviously, different rules apply to different countries. For me, it is more troubling that despite the consensus not to delete Czechia from February 21, 2018 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Czech_Republic/Archive_7#Czechia,_everywhere?, the editors have blatantly been ignoring this vote and continue to systematically delete Czechia and replace it with the Czech Republic across Wikipedia even in those situation where original sources (such as the UN, EU etc.) use Czechia. Wikipedia does not do this for any other country in the world, which has an internationally recognized and standardized short name. Geog25 (talk) 07:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Big difference, Eswatini and North Macedonia changed names of their countries, the Czech Republic only allowed use Czechia as the short form. UN and EU use Czechia because they have to, they use short forms required by the Member States. On the other side, Wikipedia uses what is the most common name. FromCzech (talk) 08:13, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• I am talking about Eswatini and North Macedonia not being WP:COMMONNAME on the first day of their name change. They were moved anyway. Geog25 (talk) 08:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• They changed their whole names so I assume that since day one they are their "commonly recognizable name", ergo WP:COMMONNAME. FromCzech (talk) 08:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• I support Czechia but this is not valid analogy. North Macedonia was true name change, old name became obsolete from day 1. Both long and short. Ewatini was debated for some time and also helped that official language of Swaziland is English. Also - sources changed. Only reason of delay was eSwatini-Eswatini pickle.Chrz (talk) 10:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The claim Eswatini and North Macedonia were moved on the first day of their name change without being WP:COMMONNAME is not correct. The move from Swaziland to Eswatini was made official on 19 April 2018. RMs were opened on 19 April 2018 and on 16 June 2018, and were rejected because there was no evidence common usage has changed. The final RM on 12 October 2018 - six months after the official change - went through on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME given WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:ENGVAR. For North Macedonia? It was a lot more involved because of the history of the dispute on Wikipedia. But that also took a few months to go through.

And remember these are actual name changes, whereas in this case we are not talking about a name change. The name of the Czech Republic has not changed. It's just that some wish to promote Czechia in its place. Kahastok talk 16:37, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Czechia 5+ years after officialization and counting. Chrz (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Ivory Coast announced in 1986 that its name was not to be translated, but that "Cote d'Ivoire" was to be used in all languages. The English speaking world promptly said "yeah, right, not gonna happen" and has blissfully ignored them for the last 35 years. --Khajidha (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

You know that THIS should have been the answer number 1, right? To show that "Cote d'Ivoire" has same set of sources in favour and ... nothing. Or is Czechia already ahead of Cote d'Ivoire? Chrz (talk) 17:31, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I was correcting a specific inaccurate claim by another user. This claim was about Eswatini and North Macedonia, not about Ivory Coast or anywhere else. Also, per WP:TALKO, please do not break up my talk page comments by by answering points between paragraphs. Kahastok talk 20:26, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know who are you talking to or why different person answers when I asked someone else. Nevertheless I checked 19 presented sources and most of them uses Czechia and Cote d'Ivoire. So valid point here, these are not sufficient for one, should not be for another. Anyway Czechia is more English-friendly, without need of ' and ^ Also, older, 5 years since officialization but roaming in English for centuries already :) Chrz (talk) 20:49, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support The Czech Republic is nothing other than the current formation of the state in Czechia Helveticus96 (talk) 08:13, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. As far as I am aware, the Czech Republic is still the common name. JIP | Talk 11:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support The title should be the short-form name as with other countries. Now that Czechia is used more commonly, as shown by many of the reliable sources cited in the discussion, there should be a move to being consistent and reflecting other literature and maps. The majority of new maps being published uses Czechia. The people saying it is not used commonly are not backing this up with any recent surveys or sources. If the moratorium is extended again, there should be clear criteria for when the article name is changed (not subjective when it's used more etc). A Nebraska Cornhusker (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• The people moving for change are the ones with the burden of justifying it with, for example, recent surveys or sources. Largoplazo (talk) 19:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• 32 hours 4,000 words later (not even counting the move request and my original commentary): While I haven't read the discussion as it now stands word for word, I don't see that a single person writing in support of the change has supplied data that would support the change under the guidelines. What's been supplied are data that fall far short of what the guidelines call for, invocation of criteria that amount to ignoring the guidelines, and expressions of disapproval of the guidelines (subcategory: disgruntlement that some name changes have met the threshold called for by the guidelines faster than others have).

If someone who wants to article to be renamed conducted a balanced search of recent reliable sources and demonstrated convincingly that the guidelines have been met, the title would quickly be changed and this would be over. Largoplazo (talk) 19:34, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support Czechia is a geographic name, Czech republic is a political name. VasekPav (talk) 20:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• This article is about the nation-state/political entity, not a geographical region. Your argument implies you meant to say oppose.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 02:55, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. If I've said it once, I've said it 1000 times. If a request if this nature is to succeed, it needs to be accompanied by clear evidence that the trends in English have changed. That's what happened with Myanmar, it's what happened with Kyiv. Moves I'd opposed in the part, but for which it became clear sources were now supporting. I just don't see that that has happened here. This isn't a case of just holding a new RM every year or two until one succeeds, just because some Czech observers wish this change to happen, it's about providing solid evidence that the COMMONNAME is now Czechia. And that just isn't there I'm afraid.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Person who placed move request vanished. Other supporters quite know now is not the right time and would wait until some big break emerges in a month od 10, but they try it now since someone started this year attempt it and this will be the last attempt in a year (or two). What do you want anyway? Google search results or what? Bacause sources presented are quite stationary without growing potential (meaning: maps, text books and encyclopedias, where it is used once or more-- but on prominent places). Chrz (talk) 06:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't disappear, was just busy for a few days :) In response to @Amakuru, I'm not Czech, and nor should nationality play any role in this. I think the problem is that in this case we're ignoring the fact that Wikipedia is effectively determining what the common name is. When anyone does a google search for the country, this article, with the title Czech Republic, shows up in the sidebar and as the first option. People wondering what the name of the country is will search the name, find the wikipedia article with the name, and assume that is the correct name. Responding to @Chrz, if you look up at the talk page there is a litany of relatively new users asking why the article name is not Czechia, being bitten and told "this is a terrible idea, read the top of the talkpage, or do an RM" by more experienced users. Of course being new they are not going to do that, and are instead never going to edit Wikipedia again. I would also argue that maps should be the most important, not least, sources of geographic names, as that is where most people will interact with said name. Even though certain editors will almost certainly suggest a moratorium after this, whatever the result is (which should be opposed in the strongest terms possible as being entirely counter to Wikipedia:Moratorium), that doesn't mean that if/when that ends it won't be possible to have this discussion again. Furthermore, even the geographic naming conventions argue against using google search results for a long list of reasons. Hentheden (talk) 10:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

The idea that people are aware of the country but not what it's called and come in droves to Wikipedia to look it up, so that Wikipedia drives what people think the country is called (as though, before Wikipedia's birth, no one had ever heard of it), is outright absurd.

When newcomers ask why the title isn't "Czechia", they're told why it isn't Czechia. You call that "biting". How would you have it—someone new comes to a page, asks why it isn't called something else, and, boom, to be nice to the newcomer, we immediately change the title to make the newcomer happy? Also, your account carries the implication that the question is asked innocently. On one or two occasions, at least, it's been more like, "Hey, you idiots, it's so offensive that the article is called 'Czech Republic'. How dare you not have already changed it to this name that the country has instead of keeping this other name that the country also has. You must all be a bunch of anti-Czech bigots." I'm exaggerating, but not by much. Largoplazo (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, if not new, please provide sources opposers so desperatelly want every time :) You saw that trying to undermine commonname policies never worked... Chrz (talk) 13:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support I'm in favour of the requested move. Oasis98 (talk) 06:21, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see any indication that Czechia is becoming more common in English to refer to the country. In fact two major recent events, Euros and Olympics, where the country has the ability to self describe how they want themselves to be named in English, have resulted in them being called Czech Republic. So it seems that the country naming thing isn't being pushed by the government or other official entities, but just by members of the public. Now public can change the name, we've seen it before, but there no indication as yet that Czechia is more common than Czech Republic, both of which appear to carry equal official weight with no preference between one or the other. And contrary to some links, even the UN officially calls it Czech Republic in its list of member states, though it sometimes happens to use Czechia in some contexts, but not in it's official listings. That being said the UN does acknowledge the country's request for the short name to be Czechia in the detailed page. Canterbury Tail talk 13:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

This was debunked earlier. Other states uses different names for such sport events and it does not shift it - source - like Laos or Iran. But it would certainly help, no doubt. At least baskatball players stoped using Czech republic on jerseys and now use Česko, it does not help much, but hey, progress... Also earlier someone wrote that Wikipedia won't follow some kind of government wishes, so what? Now it is important that government push it? Make up your mind, opposers. We can't do both. UN just hasn't updated all the pages I guess.... Chrz (talk) 14:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

While Wikipedia is not bound by government pronouncements, if the government refuses to use it itself, no one else is going to. --Khajidha (talk) 15:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

In that case look how far takes you ignoring your own registered name in UN and ISO. Quite far, doesn't it? With all the sources so far. Well, Czech government does not boycott it completelly, ministry of health and ministry of foreign affairs use it in decent numbers, but what would help is ministry of sport and education and travel agency, it is sure thing. But let's not act like we want to undermine Czech government here on Wikipedia with some covert actions, in that case Google and all the others did the same anti-government thing :) Follow ISO or Czech government, that's we question. On Czech wiki we had our deal of state names disputes, usually textbooks and encyclopedias and maps versus newspaper and usually newspaper lost. Chrz (talk) 17:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

"usually textbooks and encyclopedias and maps versus newspaper and usually newspaper lost" Which seems backwards to me. Encyclopedias should be describing real usage (ie newspapers), rather than newspapers being guided by encyclopedias. Is this a general difference in mindset between "regulated languages" an "unregulated languages"?--Khajidha (talk) 17:34, 27 July 2021 (UTC) (Note: This applies only to questions of language usage, not questions of fact.)

I don't think it has anything to do with regulating the language per se. But to have "office" for keeping geography names. Chemistry terminology in English comes from newspaper first too? I don't think so. So in Czechia, geography is considered as science too :) No, it does not mean newspaper must follow it otherwise some fine or something, no, hence the discrepances and room for disputes, but I think geography textbooks and maps usually does follow the experts. Nothing much surprising there, most of the names comes from the past. Usually small thing like Papua-New Guinea or Papua New Guinea (without "-") etc. Or if to adopt "Eswatini" or not. Czechia did not, so using Eswatini in newspaper may occur, but it should not affect Czech textbooks nor Czech Wikipedia. Simple logic on Czech Wiki: Don't write something your kids learns differently :) Exceptions allowed, as always :D

Ministry of foreign affair has its own list of coutries and it differs. Few and small things, usually order of words in formal names (Wikipedian Republic versus Republic of Wikipedia), so it is not super-super-regulated, so the full unwritten truth for Czech Wiki would may be: Use the name from (respected) geography sources unless newspaper/magazines boycott it completely. So it does not have to be 51 %. Would Czechia win if Eglish Wikipedia applies such policy? Who knows :) Let's dig into English geography textbooks :) Chrz (talk) 18:21, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Chrz, small piece of advice. At this point you're coming across as bludgeoning the conversation by trying to reply to everyone (I know it's not your intention.) It may be better to just let the posts and conversation take its, course one way or another, instead of responding to everything. Canterbury Tail talk 19:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Advice all the people with multiple posts then. Supporters, opposers, both. I think we led solid argument-counteragument evidence-counterevidence type of debate with interesting pieces of backstage information. Most of the people stayed in their prearranged positions "ah, this again, no no no", I on the other hand accepted, that Cote d'Ivoire has similar sources without any luck so in search for precedents, Czechia is now more like Ivory Coast than North Macedonia or Eswatini. And I also know that now was the worst possible time to open this discussion, but since someone else opened it and it is once a year chance, right, I took a shot. Anyway I will try to stay shut, missing or slow answer does not mean I don't have one :) Anyway, I did not say it loudly, but you guessed it, I Support it mostly by applying Czech Wikipedia unwritten standard - textbooks and maps and ISO beats newspaper. No need for 51 % usage allover for terms "blessed by standardization", the threshold is lower. Not on 1 %, but not 51 %. Yes, here we are on English Wikipedia, but anyway.... Chrz (talk) 20:00, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

On the other hand, we can see a difference between Czechia and Côte d'Ivoire. Czechia has a long tradition. We can found the word ‘Czechian’ in English in the early 17th century. [1] The word ‘Czechia’ is found in Latin in 1602 and in English in 19th century. [2] The name Côte d'Ivoire comes from French and became the official English name of the country in 1986. The big difference is that there was a short name before Côte d'Ivoire. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 20:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Khajidha I do not think that real usage = newspapers. Statistics and other sources are not real usages? --Martin Tauchman (talk) 19:27, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I was using newspapers because that is what Chrz mentioned. It probably should have been "eg" instead of "ie" to indicate that newspapers are a type of real usage and not the only real usage. That said, when you speak of statistics I think of aggregations of data, not sources of data. And aggregations of data, like encyclopedias, should follow the usage in their own sources, not be trying to control usage.--Khajidha (talk) 11:45, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of the recent sources and events, we can mention the major COVID-19 statistics (Worldometer has been already mentioned) and also Google COVID-19 statistics. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Canterbury Tail. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support The changing tide has reached a turning point. At the European football cup, in the BBC's coverage it was always Czechia. For America, see for example this [3] for the New York Times' sports reporting - it's Czechia every time.--Doric Loon (talk) 19:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment BTW, whichever way this goes, I support the idea of a moratorium. We can't return to this every month. I think I am in a minority in sensing that Czechia is now common usage - well, we all move in different circles - but I agree with Largoplazo and others that common name is what matters. Supporters of this move would be better not to be emotional and not to argue for what is "best" but instead to chart actual usage. And if that hasn't changed yet, well, it won't change next month. --Doric Loon (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• I am not trying to discredit your claim; but the evidence you provided, especially the one about the New York Times, works against your argument. The search you used only brought up 23 results, but if you type Czech Republic you get about 600 times more results. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 20:19, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Right. If you search for "Czechia", you shouldn't be surprised if your results are all "Czechia". Kahastok talk 21:02, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• FTR, my memory of the BBC's coverage of Euro 2020 is that they used Czech Republic. So I checked. Here are the match report against England and the match report against Scotland. Both use Czech Republic. If you're in Britain - and possibly elsewhere - you can still watch the highlights videos. The commentators consistently say "the Czech Republic". In tables where space is short? They say Czech Rep. I cannot account for the claim At the European football cup, in the BBC's coverage it was always Czechia. So far as I can tell it was almost never Czechia. Kahastok talk 21:02, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I would like to mention that SK Slavia Prague (one of the biggest football clubs in Czechia) used ‘Czechia’ at EURO 2020. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

And English news sources continued to refer to "the Czech Republic": https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-euro-czech-prospects/soccer-czech-euro-2020-bid-boosted-by-slavia-prague-influence-idUKKCN2D808E --Khajidha (talk) 12:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Been watching the 2020 Summer Olympics & they've been using Czech Republic. GoodDay (talk) 12:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - I must agree with @GoodDay: on that. Moreover, the use of 'Czech Republic' has been so prevalent in all fields that I do not think Wikipedia has the right to set any standards. That is my personal opinion. Also, Wikipedia:Article titles clearly suggests to "use most recognizable names". Merangs (talk) 13:33, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose yet again. The WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources remains the current one. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NAMECHANGES.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:43, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support Most oponents quote WP:COMMONNAME and ignore WP:CRITERIA - the goals of a good article name, described right at the beginning of Wikipedia:Article titles. These are:
  • Recognizability (The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize): I think we can safely say that after being used on all major online maps, Czechia satisfies this as well as Czech Republic. Even if someone has never heard the name before, the "Czech" at the beginning leaves little room for not recognizing what it means if one knows the country exists. 1 : 1
  • Naturalness (The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.) I agree, "Czech Republic" wins here: 0 : 1
  • Precision (The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.): I dare say Czechia is more accurate as a sizeable portion of the article speaks about history long predating the Czech Republic. That's a bit of nitpicking so I give the long name half a point: 1 : ½
  • Conciseness (The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.): Clear win for Czechia: 1 : 0
  • Consistency (The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.): Clear win for Czechia - the vast majority of other countries are named by their short name: 1 : 0
  • comparing both names against these main goals of article names results in Czechia winning 4 : 2½. WP:COMMONNAME mostly coresponds to the Naturalness goal, the only one where Czechia loses (although probably not 0 : 1, more like ¼ : 1). Most of the opposition against the move completely ignores the rest of them. They even claim that examples of other countries don't matter! Heck they do - they literaly demostrate the Consistency goal! Jiri.bohac (talk) 09:41, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• As with any policy or guideline page (as is the nature of the organization of the text of any law, regulation, by-law, etc., both inside and outside of Wikipedia!), WP:Article title starts with generalities and then delves into paragraphs and paragraphs of more supplemental details, including exceptions and overriding considerations, to be applied in cases where they're relevant. Your suggested approach to applying a guidelines page amounts to treating everything after its introduction as though it's there just for show.

Furthermore, the fact that most sources still use "Czech Republic" contradicts your notion that they aren't finding it recognizable, natural, or precise. Your comment on precision mystifies me because the name "Czechia" has been around for less of the country's history than "Czech Republic" has. Largoplazo (talk) 11:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Largoplazo:‘…because the name "Czechia" has been around for less of the country's history than "Czech Republic" has.’ I do not think that this is true since we can find the name Czechia in texts from the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century in English. We can find it in Latin since the beginning of the 17th century. And we can also find the word Czechian used at the beginning of the 17th century. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 11:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Largoplazo: You can't be serious arguing "the name "Czechia" has been around for less of the country's history than "Czech Republic" has." The first recorded use of Czechia was in 1541 in Latin and in 1795 in English. U.S. newspapers commonly used Czechia between 1918 and 1960 to refer to the western part of Czechoslovakia (as opposed to Slovakia, its eastern part). The Czech Republic has existed since 1993. Geog25 (talk) 12:04, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

All right, it's been around, I see—but how meaningful is it for a word to have been around if barely anybody has ever heard of it? How "precise" is the name from the point of view of people who've never encountered it? See the statistics from Google's corpus of books in English, for example: [4]. I mean, Eboracum has been around an awful lot longer than York, but which title do we use for the article about that city in England? No one is going to argue that Eboracum is more "precise" because it's older and it's what people nearly 2,000 years ago called it. We're writing Wikipedia for people who are alive today. LLargoplazoargoplazo (talk) 14:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Largoplazo, you're missing the point I was trying to make; for the sake of precision it does not matter how old the name is. What matters is what the name means. Czech Republic describes an entity founded in 1993. The article (also) talks about past kings - Czechia would be a more precise title, since it is a name for the place throughout history, not a name for what we have now in this place. Jiri.bohac (talk) 16:07, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

By that reasoning the article on the United States of America can only cover material since 4 July 1776. It doesn't work that way. The article for any current state will cover its history throughout time, from the first human habitation to today, regardless of what name may have been used at the time (or even if any state existed there at all). --Khajidha (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Khajidha: I would like to mention that the United States of America do not have the geographical name. Czechia does. --Martin Tauchman (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@LLargoplazoargoplazo: I would like to argue that Google might not have to access text for plenty of books at that time and could list their titles only. Additionally, we have to mention that in the 19th century, Czechia was part of ‘Cisleithania’ (or ‘The Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council’ if you like the formal names) divided into three lands (Bohemia, Moravia and Austrian Silesia) so there was no big need to use a special name for it (but there was still name Czechia, as mentioned before). --Martin Tauchman (talk) 17:33, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

If it wasn't used at the time, then it might as well not exist. Bohemia, Moravia, and Silesia are all names that are familiar to any English speaker who has at least some interest in/knowledge of the history of the region. "Czechia" is something that no living English speaker seems to recall ever coming across before this campaign to change English usage began. Maybe a very few specialists in the history of the region would have recognized it, but no one else. --Khajidha (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, I have been silent long enough :) Commonname says: "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We do not know what terms or names will be used in the future, but only what is and has been in use, and is therefore familiar to our readers. However, common sense can be applied – if the subject of an article has a name change, it is reasonable to consider the usage following the change in reliable, English-language sources. This provision also applies to names used as part of descriptive titles." My interpretation: No need for 51% usage. The trend is more important, to catch the wave in the right time, not to be far behind, last one to change. Is Czechia there yet? Weeeeeeeeeellllllllll.... In the end this all is only stalling, Czechia will win and only accomplishment of opposition is not to have it on Wikipedia a day or a year sooner than it would normally be. Is it worth the effort to block something unevitable? Yes yes, crystal ball, importance of following the rules, no activism, I know. 18:34, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

"if the subject of an article has a name change, it is reasonable to consider the usage following the change in reliable, English-language sources" And most of those sources haven't changed. That's the point. --Khajidha (talk) 18:37, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

It is a matter what sources you want to see and what to block. Maps changed. Once. Definitelly. What is "the usage" there? Was 0 %, is 100 %. Am I counting it correctly? :) ISO changed. Such sources can't change more. Done deal. UN changed like 50 % (name registered, recognized, not used on name plates - Russian Federation same deal without effect on wiki article title). Geography book sources - who knows, everybody is just googling news titles and watch sport :) Chrz (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC){

Yes, because that's how most people will encounter the name. You only encounter the name in an atlas if you search it out. You hear it in stories about soccer, or NATO, or the EU, or trade agreements, or whatever without having to seek it out. That is natural usage. That is what we follow. --Khajidha (talk) 18:59, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Let's check what children encounter in their textbooks. Of geography, of history (current history :). Such sources aren't in vast numbers but with great effect :) EU is not considered as English standard setter or influencer? Now with UK being out? EU is Czechia-ing. Also like from 0 to 100 momentarily - because of its style guide. 19:08, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, checking maps online and online geography texbooks from both middle schools and colleges I am seeing lots of uses of "Czech Republic"and a few of "Czech Republic (Czechia)" and a few of "Czechia". --Khajidha (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

2016 plusChrz (talk) 21:51, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes. For a couple examples, the current National Geographic originated middle school curriculum uses the "Czech Republic (Czechia)" form and a 2019 published free access text from the University of North Carolina uses "the Czech Republic". --Khajidha (talk) 22:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know how many textbooks are there in English for all the English speaking countries but - not bad. That "Czech Republic (Czechia)" seems to be a way for not completely bold sources. Some kind of interim period, but not applicable to Wikipedia. Until Czechia is before the brackets and Czech Republic hiden inside them, I guess you wouldn't count it as source pro Czechia. ....

The EU thing too, we have not solved it - does EU-English count or not. Is it considered same as NATO, UN, US department of state? Meaning not a source for common people to decide what common name is? Chrz (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment There is enough proof that Czechia is way older than the Czech Republic; a simple check of the Library of Congress archive (and there are many more resources) is enough. Let me put it this way; you can argue all you want, about three administrators will decide against Czechia; it's as simple as that.Helveticus96 (talk) 11:51, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support – per Unloosek, Martin Tauchman, Helveticus96 and Geog25. — Draceane ^talk_{contributions} 12:58, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and re-instate MR moratorium for one year (or with special permission from admins with experience in closing RMs if a significant change happens in less than a year - the country announces it's removing all references to "Czech Republic", say.). Per Amakuru, these many failed RMs continue to fail to present an even-handed review of quality sources and to make a COMMONNAME argument. Google Maps is hardly a good source here. Nobody contests that "Czechia" is used in some places, the question is the preponderance of reliable sources - in other words, not stuff like UN resolutions or Google Maps that can be affected easily by social pressure. See https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/22/world/europe/russia-czech-republic-spies-ammunition-depot-2014.html , a very recent (~3 months or so ago) article in a high-quality English language source that uses Czech Republic and never Czechia. SnowFire (talk) 00:41, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support I support Czechia because it is the most overwhelmingly inclusive, historically, geographically and grammatically correct and official name for the whole country, in time and space, in English. Czechia means the land of Czechs in Latin. English has adopted Latin names for all its current and past composite parts, currently Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia. Someone asked, why is Czechia so important? It is because it unifies the country and all its parts behind one timeless name that describes it in its entirety in time and space, just like France. In historical context, the Czech Republic name is only a very small subset of many state-form names Czechia has had or has been a part of throughout its history. The Czech Republic name is more temporary; a part. Czechia is more permanent; a whole. Just like with all Czechia's neighbours, we have Wikipedia articles on Austria, Germany, Poland and Slovakia. As such, it is consistent to have an article on Czechia. Thank you all on both sides for your contributions. Have a lovely day! --Danda Panda (talk) 01:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose and re-instate MR moratorium for one year – Go ask one thousand native English speakers, "What's the name of that landlocked country in central Europe that speaks a Slavic language and has Prague as its capital?" Here's my guess for the answers you'll get: 350: "Czechoslovakia"; 125: "Czech Republic"; 8: "Czechia"; 507: "Hungary", "Romania", "I don't know" or "other". People who think the common name in English for this country is "Czechia" must be living on some other planet than I am.

  ▻ Search the web now: What country has Prague as its capital?

  ▻ Search books: The capital of * is Prague.

  ▻ Search academia: Prague AND (Czechia OR Czech Republic OR Czechoslovakia OR Czechoslovak Republic)

Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 06:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

References