Talk:Sex–gender distinction

Will this new one do?

I rewritten the sentence to this

“It’s agreed that anisogamy (gametes differing in size) is the defining feature of the sexes.

Biologists agree that anisogamy is the main difference between the two sexes. Richard Dawkins even stated that it’s possible to interpret all the differences between the sexes stemming from this single difference in gametes.

By definition, males are organisms that produce small, mobile gametes (sperm); while females are organisms that produce large and generally immobile gametes (ova or eggs).”

Will this do for y’all?CycoMa (talk) 02:23, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Why are you so intent on inserting superfluous phrases about agreement where none are needed? That is the part of your edits that at least three different editors have taken issue with - and in none of your attempts to make it "better" have you left that out. Stop edit warring to reinsert it and at least explain why in those specific sentences and no other you believe it's so important to include. --Equivamp - talk 08:54, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Equviamp if there is an agreement why is it a problem that for it being mentioned. One source literally said biologists agree gamete size is the main difference. That’s literally what the source said. Isn’t Wikipedia supposed to side with majority views among scholars? CycoMa (talk) 12:15, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

--Equivamp - can I at least quote what the texts say in the citation? CycoMa (talk) 12:19, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Equivamp seriously why is it hard to reply to you. CycoMa (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, adding the quotes to the source is generally fine and even encouraged. I can give more of a response later. -- Equivamp - talk 16:50, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Equivamp the reason why I wanted it inserted in so badly was because I wanted people to know this is a mainstream view among biologists.

I have even seen sources that directly say there is a consensus in this. Which two of the sources have stated it’s accepted.

CycoMa (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I mean one source literally said that biologists agree the difference in gamete size is the main difference between the sexes. That was source from PLOS Biology a peer reviewed scientific journal. I even asked at reliable source noticeboard if the information still holder up.

Did you or I misread something?

Were the sentences I added worded weirdly?

You also said there was no consensus on this topic. What makes you say that?CycoMa (talk) 21:17, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Look it’s not my job to say what view point is widely accepted or not. If a reliable source says something is accepted I have to add it.CycoMa (talk) 21:18, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Please take time to carefully read the comments/edit summaries of people you're interacting with. I never said that there was no consensus on the topic. Nor did any of the other editors who have reverted or changed your additions - note that the sources you added were never removed. It is the fact there there is an uncontroversial scientific consensus that births the issue with your edits. If there wasn't a consensus, such as if there were some other debated viewpoint that Wikipedia needs to describe, then we would attribute the statement. As it stands, the phrase Biologists agree could be placed at the beginning of virtually every sentence in the article; why are you so keen on placing it in front of these two?

Another issue with your proposed edit is that the second sentence is just the first sentence, reworded slightly and stated again.

The MOS is littered with instructions to refrain from redundancy. See WP:TERSE for the most specific example. It's simply not acceptable to add so much clutter to the article. --Equivamp - talk 01:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Well I’m sorry I misread what y’all have been saying especially you. Look the reason I wanted to put it in was because there are many non-biologists who love to argue against that view. Also I didn’t want to be accused of original research so I tried my best to stick with what the sources were say.CycoMa (talk) 03:52, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Just keep WP:DUE and WP:FRINGE in mind and think about whether those other arguments would even warrant a mention. --Equivamp - talk 15:21, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Judith Butler

I have an issue with a certain sentence

“ Judith Butler also criticizes the sex/gender distinction. Discussing sex as biological fact causes sex to appear natural and politically neutral. However, she argues that "the ostensibly natural facts of sex [are] discursively produced in the service of other political and social interests." Butler concludes, "If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps this construct called 'sex' is as culturally constructed as gender; indeed, perhaps it was always already gender, with the consequence that the distinction between sex and gender turns out to be no distinction at all."[76]”

Why is this article treating Judith Butler like she’s some kind expert on the biology of sex. She is merely a philosopher and gender theorist, she has no expertise in an form of biology. Wikipedia shouldn’t treat individuals who have no expertise on a topic as experts.CycoMa (talk) 05:18, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

That also goes for this.

“ Rather than viewing sex as a biological construct, there are feminists who accept both sex and gender as a social construct. According to the Intersex Society of North America, "nature doesn't decide where the category of 'male' ends and the category of 'intersex' begins, or where the category of 'intersex' ends and the category of 'female' begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex."[72]”

We shouldn’t be treating these individuals like they are experts on the topic when they clearly aren’t. This is fields like giving fringe ideas due weight.CycoMa (talk) 05:24, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Think about the title of this article, which defines what it is about. You could no more distance Butler, who is one of the premier theoreticians of gender, from this article, than you could one of the top biologists or sexologists from the article because "they have no expertise in gender". In fact, Butler writes extensively on the distinction of sex and gender, and is known internationally for it, and so it would be expected that she would be amply referred to here, or quoted. Mathglot (talk) 08:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Mathglot she may be an expert on the gender aspect but, she clearly isn’t on the sex aspect.

I mean just because you know there is a difference between A and B doesn’t mean you are an expert on B.

I mean you wouldn’t cite a technician for an article on physics.CycoMa (talk) 13:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Butler's quote is not discussing the biological aspects of sex. The existence of non-biological aspects of sex is not a fringe idea, and Butler is well-qualified to discuss and critique the sex-gender distinction. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 14:39, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers that’s fair.CycoMa (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers non-biological aspects. What do you mean by that exactly? Do you have any examples, because I was always told gender and sex were two distinct things. Sex being the biological while gender is the sociological.CycoMa (talk) 16:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Sex (in humans specifically) has aspects covered by medicine, law, athletics, history, philosophy, and more. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay sure, I guess sex in a way does vary depending on context.

Biologists might say sex in humans determined by sex chromosomes, doctors might say your sex is assigned to you at birth, and sociologists might say sex is determined by society.

My overall issue is that it appears she is interpreting a biological concept like it’s some political thing or it is something created by society.

(Or maybe I’m misreading it).CycoMa (talk) 18:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Anne Fausto-Sterling

Oh yeah about Anne Fausto-Sterling, the book cited here is from 2 decades ago. There are updated versions to it, so I’m not entirely sure she still believes these things.

Also I’m not entirely sure about this. In order to prove that sex is not only limited to two categories Anne Fausto-Sterling's Sexing the Body addresses the birth of children who are intersex. In this case, the standard model (sex/gender distinction) is seen as incorrect with regard to its notion that there are only two sexes, male and female. This is because "complete maleness and complete femaleness represent the extreme ends of a spectrum of possible body types."[72] In other words, Fausto-Sterling argues that there are multitudes of sexes in between the two extremes of male and female. Rather than viewing sex as a biological construct, there are feminists who accept both sex and gender as a social construct. Fausto-Sterling believes that sex is socially constructed because nature does not decide on who is seen as a male or female physically. Rather, doctors decide what seems to be a "natural" sex for the inhabitants of society.

Probably me overanalyzing, but this comes off as contradictory. Anne says it’s socially constructed and while at the same time say it’s a spectrum. Also why is this written like Fausto-Sterling’s opinion is 100% fact. Isn’t that technically against Wikipedia’s policies of treating opinions as fact.

Also why is this in here? Rather than viewing sex as a biological construct, there are feminists who accept both sex and gender as a social construct. Who are these feminists exactly? Are these feminists experts in biology? If not we shouldn’t use language like “they accept” because it’s technically not their area to speak in. It would be appropriate to say there are feminists who think it is a social construct.CycoMa (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Also about the whole feminists accept it as a social construct. The whole social construct thing is mainly a thing talked about in the social sciences, it’s not really concept used in the other sciences. But anyway I’m not sure it’s appropriate that completely different fields of academia are saying different things about the same subject.

It’s like theologists saying evolution is a myth while biologists say it’s true.CycoMa (talk) 16:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

CycoMa, while we share an intellectual curiosity about why experts might say or write what they do, you occasionally shift beyond the "curious" phase, into what sounds to me like a personal evaluation on your part (or on our part, collectively) on whether their writings in published secondary sources should be included or not, because "they are not experts in X". This goes beyond our remit here, and you should back off that overture, and stick to our role, which is summarizing sources relevant to the topic and citing them. If you believe a particular author or publishing medium is not reliable on a topic, it's certainly appropriate to take that up at WP:RSN, but you'll be laughed off the page if you try to say Butler isn't reliable for the topic of sex and gender; some might say she's the number one thinker in the world on the topic, and Fausto-Sterling is prominent in the field.

Once again, please refer to the title of this article which is about a distinction, in which the phrase sex and gender acts as a nominal adjective (what kind of distinction? A sex and gender distinction). This whole article is about a distinction, and the topic was expanded and popularized by feminists in the early second wave; had it not been for feminist theorists, perhaps nobody outside journals on hermaphroditism (in the 1950s and 60s) would ever have heard of the distinction in the first place. Put another way, feminist theory took the whole (very obscure, highly technical) concept of the sex and gender distinction (Money, 1955) into academic discourse as a subject worthy of wide discussion in a social and cultural sphere. So, it would be completely impossible to even have an article on this topic without referring to the writings of feminists, and you can't have one on the topic without citing the feminists (and those who came after, feminist or not) who were influenced by the idea, and wrote about it as well.

Whether you agree with Butler, or Fausto-Sterling is beside the point. You don't have to agree with Marx and Engels to summarize their thoughts in an article on capitalism, and you don't have to agree with Fausto-Sterling or Butler to summarize their thoughts here. If doing so makes you want to gag, then just avoid that part of the article, and let someone else do it. It's not our role to challenge the chops of prominent thought leaders on a topic; as for the question of why they wrote what they did, that is probably unanswerable, but in any case, off-topic here (unless they wrote about it!) Mathglot (talk) 17:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@CycoMa: In addition to what Mathglot said, please consider how many bytes you've personally contributed to sex and gender-related articles and talk pages, and (re)-read WP:OWN. Funcrunch (talk) 19:17, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Mathglot I think you are missing my point.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t include scholars I don’t agree with. Yes I know I’m over-analyzing.

I never said Butler or Fausto-Sterling aren’t experts on the topic nor did I say they shouldn’t be included.

With Judith Butler

I told you in the other discussion Butler was an expert and I never once denied her expertise.

When I called out Judith Butler, I’m basically pointing she is not an expert on biology, this isn’t even a personal opinion look her up yourself you wouldn’t find any sources saying she is an expert on biology.

I don’t understand why this article should treat an individual like her as expert on the biological view of sex, and it doesn’t matter if she is an expert on the distinction between sex and gender. If a scholar doesn’t have any expertise on the biological view of a certain topic them Wikipedia shouldn’t treat them as a good source for how biology should be.

It’s not against the rules to call out sources that don’t know anything about a particular topic. Like no one had an issue with me removing this one sociological book that claimed sex in humans is determined by five factors from this article.

with Fausto-Sterling.

I never said we shouldn’t have here book in here, I said that we should probably replace that source because

1, that book is from 20 years ago

2, I checked there are more updated versions of her book.

Also when I pointed out that one paragraph, I was merely saying it needs some fixing.

I’m not say she is wrong, I’m not saying we should remove her views, and I’m not saying she’s biased. Fix up that those paragraphs and give her views more clarification, because right now her views come off as confusing and unorganized.

Also the Feminism: general section itself is problematic because it uses only two sources. Like where are the other prominent feminists on this topic?

Also I’m pretty sure you would know that both of these individuals have their critics. And that’s not me being using a personal opinion, it’s mentioned on their Wikipedia pages.

So to make things easier to understand here is a list of issues.

• Replace some of the sources with more updated versions. Because I know these books have updated versions.
• Fix up some paragraphs so a certain scholar’s view on a topic is more clear.
• Make sure the scholars know they have knowledge on a particular topic. Or reword it better in a way that fits the context on what they are talking about.
• Add more sources to sections that don’t have many sources.

Also I kindly ask you not to use language about how this makes me want to vomit.CycoMa (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

About Butler, I would love for you to either point out a comment on biology that they are not qualified to make or consider the matter done. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

check her Wikipedia article. Judith Butler.CycoMa (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Is that a reply to my comment? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:00, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes.CycoMa (talk) 20:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Butler's Wikipedia page is "a comment on biology that they are not qualified to make"? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I don’t see her having any PhD relating to it, so technically yeah. Am I saying her views shouldn’t be mentioned on Wikipedia? Nope, but what is put on Wikipedia varies from context.CycoMa (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I want to try again and maybe be more clear. We're talking about improvements to this article. Butler certainly has expertise in many areas, but they do not have expertise in biology. You said "I don’t understand why this article should treat an individual like her as expert on the biological view of sex". I am asking: what text in this article is treating Butler as an expert on the biological view of sex? What biology-specific comment are they making? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I guess her comment is fine for the moment, although here interpretation of the matter comes of as a little anti biology.CycoMa (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Also not to mention the feminist section is problematic because I know that feminists were the ones who brought forth this distinction. The whole section comes off as criticizing the distinction rather than supporting it.

It’s weird that basically all of the feminists in that section are basically arguing sex and gender are vague or socially constructed concepts.

When I know there are indeed feminists who might disagree with that.CycoMa (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

There's too much to respond to (that seems to be a pattern) but here's a selection:

When I called out Judith Butler, I’m basically pointing she is not an expert on biology, this isn’t even a personal opinion look her up yourself you wouldn’t find any sources saying she is an expert on biology.

It's irrelevant whether she is an expert on biology. This article is not an article on biology. Did you skip the whole section above where I tried to explain how this is an article about a distinction? Why do you keep coming back to "she's not an expert on biology", when that's not what this article is about?

I don’t understand why this article should treat an individual like her as expert on the biological view of sex, and it doesn’t matter if she is an expert on the distinction between sex and gender.

Seems mostly a repetition of your previous point. And it absolutely *does* matter if she is an expert on the distinction between sex and gender, because this article is entitled, "Sex and gender distinction"; your comment that it doesn't matter is bizarre.

It’s not against the rules to call out sources that don’t know anything about a particular topic. Like no one had an issue with me removing this one sociological book that claimed sex in humans is determined by five factors from this article.

True enough, but that's addressing the issue of reliability in context, so a valid discussion. I'm repeating myself, but if you attempt to claim that Judith Butler is not knowledgeable about the sex and gender distinction, the laughter will be deafening. Nobody cares if she is a biological expert; that's not what this article is about.

Regarding your comment about older versions of the F-S book:

that book is from 20 years ago ... I checked there are more updated versions of her book.

I have no objection to using a newer edition; that would be an improvement.

Fix up that those paragraphs and give her views more clarification, because right now her views come off as confusing and unorganized.

I'm all for clarification. If you edit the article for that purpose, please put "clarification" or "fix confusing paragraphs" or similar in the edit summary, and link the summary to this discussion, if you don't mind. (You can even use a hash tag right in the summary, like #FsDisorgClarify, and you'll come right back to this spot in an on-page search.)

Also the Feminism: general section itself is problematic because it uses only two sources. Like where are the other prominent feminists on this topic?

WP:SOFIXIT.

From your List of issues, bullets 1, 2, and 4 sound fine to me. Your bullet 3, however:

Make sure the scholars know they have knowledge on a particular topic. Or reword it better in a way that fits the context on what they are talking about.

I think that's a stretch. If they are published in reliable sources on the topic, and represent a majority or minority viewpoint, then that's not something we should be doing. If you want to do a reliability challenge for a particular author in context, you could try the WP:RSN, and please link the discussion here.

I feel like I'm repeating myself to a certain extent, so I may bow out of future discussion on this, unless I see something completely new and on-topic, that would benefit the article by my reply, so please don't take offense if you follow up, and I don't comment. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 21:07, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Mathglot I guess Judith Butler’s comments are fine for the moment, her comments appear to fit the context of the article.CycoMa (talk) 21:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Linguistic differences in gender and sex bias

In the 2nd paragraph, it is stated that "there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias". The source(39) does not seem to confirm this. I have not found any academic sources that prove this statement to be accurate. Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ConfusedPersonne (talk • contribs) 01:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The citation was wrong. The text is a quote from the gender entry of the American Heritage Dictionary (old ref had it as part of sex). Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:28, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I’m making subsection

I’m making subsections because at times the definitions use by various groups and organizations contradict each other at times. It also makes things easier to navigate through.CycoMa (talk) 03:43, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah regarding that sexual continuum

I’m just putting this comment down because I know there might be an edit war over this sentence. According to French anthropologist Priscille Touraille, this sexual continuum argument has been received prominence in gender studies but not in biology.[72]

Keep in mind the book cited in that sentence was written by philosophers in science and biology.

So I’m gonna present what the sources say on the matter. I think this chapter from Richard Dawkins book explains thing. Here’s a link to a free version of his book if you are interested.(his book is mentioned here in the article.)

Also here are some free sources on the matter if you are interested check out this, this, this, and this. I have more sources on this.(which unfortunately aren’t free.)

Also I found this essay on the matter. (Here is a free version of it) The individual who written this also a philosopher in biology.(I can’t say if her views 100% align with mainstream biology since she is mostly a philosopher.)

The whole gamete size view may seem weird but keep in mind according to this source this is considered the fundamental difference.(it does mention there is some debate on some aspects of this topic tho.)

I was thinking about quoting the individuals but I don’t want this comment to be too long. I understand this may be controversial but keep in mind this is clearly a mainstream view.CycoMa (talk) 04:18, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

That's a lot of sources! I would prefer for now to focus on the Borghini source. Are we looking at the same page? The quote I see, a footnote, says "It seems important to point out that, as reported by Touraille (2011), although Fausto-Sterling's proposal has had a great resonance within gender studies, it did not have the same resonance within the community of biologists." I believe my tweaks to your edit are appropriate:

• we shouldn't continue to use the resonance language, as that's too close a paraphrase
• we should attribute the view to Touraille, as the book's authors do
• we should note that the view has been accepted more by gender studies experts than biology experts, not that it has been rejected by biologists

Are we interpreting that line differently, or did you have a different part of the book in mind? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers I understand that we shouldn’t copy edit, but I didn’t want to distort what the guy was saying on the matter. Maybe we are interpreting the source differently.

Maybe it would be better to cite what Priscille Touraille says on the matter, but I can’t tell where they got that information from.

Also the sources cited in the biologists section say are two sexes in most species. They also address the thing about how male and female are actually classified.CycoMa (talk) 05:03, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Actually I think your change was fine, I’m gonna keep it like that for the moment until I find where they got that information from.CycoMa (talk) 05:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I also thought go right to Touraille. Touraille (2011) might be this journal-published interview between her and Fausto-Sterling in French. I had to muddle through with my limited french skills and some machine translation, but it seems less clear about the continuum idea's prominence in biological circles than the Borghini book's footnote. There may be another Touraille 2011 that the book is actually referring to.

I want to resist muddying the waters here with what biologists say about the sexes in general. Are they directly commenting on Fausto-Sterling's reception by biologists? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I like your recent edit's use of same. Can I propose a little flip-around to reduce the repetition of prominence?

...this sexual continuum argument has not gained the same prominence in the biological sciences as it has in gender studies.

Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I do like your idea in that.CycoMa (talk) 05:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Not sure about this paragraph

The case of David Reimer, who was raised as a girl after a botched circumcision, was described in the book As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl. Reimer was in fact not comfortable as a girl and later confirmed his innate gender identity, changing his presentation back to male when he discovered the truth of his surgery. He eventually committed suicide.[12]

I’m not entirely sure this paragraph is related to the subject of the article to be honest. A part of me is telling myself it belongs and another side of me is telling myself it doesn’t belong here.

I’m just gonna wait and see what other editors think.CycoMa (talk) 07:24, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Let’s not define sex and gender in the lead

I’m against defining sex and gender in lead. Because the definition of both of these varies from different fields in academia and who you ask. This article addresses the topic from biology, sociology, medical, activism, and etc. These various groups don’t always agree with each other definitions, so defining what sex and gender is in the lead adds more confusion to matter.CycoMa (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay look, adding definitions to the lead isn’t ideal here. Look at the section on biology and look at the Public health organizations part. Notice how those contradict each other.CycoMa (talk) 18:04, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Tewdar, there are some issues with this. For one, the World Health Organization is not the best source - definitions that they find useful don't necessarily match what science considers most accurate. We should not be implying that intersex is a third sex, or that people are assigned that as a sex at birth. Intersex conditions, also known as disorders of sex development, are in fact sex-specific. As far as the genders listed, man and boy are the same gender, as are woman and girl. It is WP:UNDUE to list specific nonbinary identities, given that all of these are under the nonbinary umbrella and the small population sizes. Crossroads ^-talk- 18:11, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I did not add any references... Tewdar (talk) 18:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it is useful to point out, in the lead, that a majority of those who talk about a sex-gender distinction are highlighting a difference between biological attributes on the one hand, and sociological or psychological on the other.

You can be assigned intersex at birth.

Man and boy are examples of different genders.

I have no objection to "male, female, or nonbinary" as gender examples in the lead. Tewdar (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, sorry I made it seem like you did add that reference. For future use, this source may be useful. It's a WP:MEDRS review article, super recent, and very careful in how it defines all the various terms related to this subject.

I have not heard of "intersex" being assigned at birth as a sex. Being diagnosed with such a condition, sure, but that's different - that's not recognition of intersex as a sex. It is not.

Can you clarify "Man and boy are examples of different genders"? Man and boy are part of the same male gender. Crossroads ^-talk- 18:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Current lede "The sex and gender distinction refers to the conceptual differentiation of a person's sex from that person's gender." I can work that out from the page name!!! Tewdar (talk) 18:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Look, please understand that this article addresses a broad topic. Let me show the definitions presented here.

Anisogamy, or the size differences of gametes (sex cells), is the defining feature of the two sexes.[11][12][13][14] According to biologist Michael Majerus there is no other universal difference between males and females.[15] By definition, males are organisms that produce small, mobile gametes (sperm); while females are organisms that produce large and generally immobile gametes (ova or eggs).[16][17][18][19]

The World Health Organization (WHO) similarly states that "'sex' refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'male' and 'female' are sex categories".[30]

GLAAD (formerly the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) makes a distinction between sex and gender in their most recent[timeframe?] Media Reference Guide: Sex is "the classification of people as male or female" at birth, based on bodily characteristics such as chromosomes, hormones, internal reproductive organs, and genitalia. Gender identity is "one's internal, personal sense of being a man or woman (or a boy or a girl)".[

Notice how their definitions don’t align well with each other. Also there is a section that criticizes the distinction in general.

Also I don’t understand why you put sex is male, female, and intersex. Because none of the sources cited in the lead said that. This source says, "Sex" refers to biological differences between females and males, including chromosomes, sex organs, and endogenous hormonal profiles.

If you want to include the mention of people being assigned intersex put it a medical section.CycoMa (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

eg "Pregnancy intentions and outcomes among transgender, nonbinary, and gender-expansive people assigned female or intersex at birth in the United States: Results from a national, quantitative survey" Tewdar (talk) 18:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

All the sources defining sex differ. But they are all biological definitions. My lead mentions most of the various ways that sex may be assigned biologically (chromosomes, hormones, gonads...) Tewdar (talk) 18:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Um to make things clear one of the biological sources points out why defining sex by sex characteristics is problematic. Also assigned sex is primarily a medical term.CycoMa (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I have no objection to "typically male or female" in the definition of sex in the lede, removing intersex is fine if it's objectionable. Tewdar (talk) 18:33, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Plus I don’t understand why you say typically. That seems like original research.CycoMa (talk) 18:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

When I say "male, female, or intersex", you don't like intersex. When I remove intersex and suggest "typically male or female", you play the original research card! Do you really need me to provide a source that says humans are typically assigned male or female at birth? Tewdar (talk) 18:46, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Um this source is currently source number [3] in the lead.

Come to think of it I suspect there may be some original research in the lead. I think someone look at various sources without understanding how they align with each other.

But, anyway maybe you could put assigned intersex at sex assignment if you like. I’m just not sure it’s appropriate here.CycoMa (talk) 18:34, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

For example, a trans man may identify as a man,not a boy. Thus his gender identity is "man", not "boy".

A trans boy may identify as a boy. Thus his gender identity is "boy", not "man".

Both examples may also identify as "male". Tewdar (talk) 18:35, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I’m just gonna say this gender identity is subjective and I’m not entirely sure that relevant to this discussion in general.CycoMa (talk) 18:40, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Crossroads asked me. Tewdar (talk) 18:49, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

How come these tiny objections you are raising are not simply edited, rather than reverting? You don't like "intersex", fine, delete it. You want to replace man-boy with male, great, do it. But the current lede is crap. It is tautologous. It tells me nothing. For a majority of sources from all disciplines making the distinction, sex == biology and gender == psychology/sociology. You can present all the details later. But instead, we ask readers to visit the sex and gender pages, where they will find out *exactly what my lede said! Tewdar (talk) 18:40, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I don’t think you understand what I’m trying to say. All I’m trying to say that sex and gender is a extremely complex topic.

Biologists would say a woman is a human organism that can get pregnant and give birth.

Psychologists would say a woman is a person who identifies as one.

Neither of these definitions of woman are wrong, it’s the definition of woman varies depending on context. This is the same for sex and gender, it’s all about context.

The biggest issue is that your edit assumes that those definitions of sex and gender fit all contexts.CycoMa (talk) 18:46, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

You don't agree that the sex gender distinction is primarily seen as a distinction between biological factors and sociological /psychological factors? Because I could probably give you *hundreds* of high quality reliable sources that *all say the same thing as my lede*. It is a *summary*, not an attempt to "fit all contexts", that's what the article is for. Tewdar (talk) 18:53, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I never said that. Notice how the biological sources in the sex section define sex differently than the way you defined it.CycoMa (talk) 18:59, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Also by the way humans are a gonochoric species. Gonochorism means a species has either a male or female sex. So no there are no other sexes.CycoMa (talk) 19:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

@CycoMa I was talking about birth-assigned sex. If you don't disagree, why did you revert? Again? I thought I got rid of the objectionable parts? What didn't you like? Tewdar (talk) 19:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

You defined sex by gonads, chromosomes, and hormones. That’s not the biological definition of sex. You also said typically male or female which is probably, since our species is gonochoric.CycoMa (talk) 19:13, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• I'm* not defining anything! But *reliable sources making the distinction* say that sex is usually defined biologically, by size of sex cells, or by chromosomes, or hormones, or genitalia, etc. I really don't see what your problem was with the last edit, since I thought I'd removed all the stuff you objected to. *What, specifically, of the last edit I made do you object to*? Tewdar (talk) 19:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• Okay, this discussion is going in circles between the same two editors, which usually produces off-putting walls of text. CycoMa, you don't always need to respond so quickly. Tewdar, I'm not sure which source says "people assigned female or intersex at birth", but per WP:Due weight, sex assignment refers to assignment as male or female. I'm undecided if intersex should be mentioned in the lead, but "typically male or female" is also problematic as it implies that there are other sexes, when there aren't. Regarding "a trans man may identify as a man,not a boy. Thus his gender identity is "man", not "boy". A trans boy may identify as a boy. Thus his gender identity is "boy", not "man"", no, these are the same gender, only age is being indicated here. Gender does not change when a boy grows into a man.
  Since the status quo has been restored, probably for the best, Tewdar, how about proposing something based on this review article? It covers all these aspects, biological and sociological, comprehensively and in an up to date manner. Crossroads ^-talk- 19:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize the status quo had been restored until after I attempted my compromise lede. Please feel free to revert. Tewdar (talk) 19:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"Tewdar, how about proposing something based on this review article? It covers all these aspects, biological and sociological, comprehensively and in an up to date manner."

No, because hours of hard work will be reverted in seconds by anyone watching this page, obviously. Tewdar (talk) 19:14, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

I note that now, "gender" is explained in the lede, but "sex" is not. Hmm. Tewdar (talk) 19:31, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

From that article Crossroads linked to:

"Sex is a biological concept"

"Gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society."

"A simple biological definition of male and female, satisfactory to all people, is elusive."

I agree with all these statements. Perhaps someone might summarise them and put them in the lede...

Tewdar (talk) 19:40, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

When it comes to sinking hours into something on Wikipedia only to be reverted or out-discussed, trust me, I've been there. I suggested proposing something because, on Talk, we can all make suggestions and agree on it (more or less).

Regarding "a simple biological definition", I'll note for clarity's sake that the source also says, "Biological sex is dichotomous because of the different roles of each sex in reproduction." It goes on to explain the details. In biological terms, sex is a phenotypic trait, and is determined by multiple factors. Crossroads ^-talk- 20:16, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Look all I’m saying is that it’s not ideal to put definitions in the especially when these definitions aren’t always easy and sometimes contradict each other. It’s probably more ideal to present definitions in sections and let readers decide what sex is.CycoMa (talk) 20:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

The lede is atrocious. It gives the reader no idea whatsoever about what the sex-gender distinction is. Apart from a distinction. Between sex and gender. Tewdar (talk) 20:25, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"Sex" usually means biological factors. "Gender" usually means psychosocial factors. This is a summary of a wide variety of high quality, reliable sources. Tewdar (talk) 20:30, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Look at this page: Fact–value distinction. Brilliant. I know exactly what it is about right away, *even though "fact" and "value" are disputed controversial terms which is explained later*.

Look at this page: Sex and gender distinction. Dreadful. I don't know anything about it, *even after reading half of the article*.

Atrocious.

That’s why it’s ideal to define sex in the section. Let the readers decide for themselves what sex and gender is.CycoMa (talk) 20:40, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"Let the readers decide for themselves what sex and gender is" - Please, edit every Wikipedia article lede so that there is no summary of the general consensus of the article content, so that readers can "decide for themselves" about... well, everything. Tewdar (talk) 20:50, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Please note that saying that sex is defined using some sort of biological features, is not itself a definition. Tewdar (talk) 20:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

"The distinction between sex and gender differentiates a person's sex from that person's gender" - Please, someone fix this at least, it hurts my brain and my eyes! Tewdar (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

What is the distinction between sex and gender?

Here is a list. Perhaps this will allow the article to make some generalizations in the lede. Sources are **only** added if they define **both** sex and gender in an attempt to **distinguish** or **discuss the relationship between** sex and gender, and **not used** if they only define one or the other, because this would require synthesis on our part. Please feel free to add sources to this list (perhaps CycoMa and Crossroads might like to contribute), but only if they meet the above criteria: Tewdar (talk) 09:36, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Current Wikipedia Lede

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates a person's sex from that person's gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).

(Tautologous, confusing, badly worded, defines gender but not sex... Tewdar (talk) 10:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC))

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sex_and_gender_distinction&oldid=984416682

(The same article on 20 October 2020... Tewdar (talk) 11:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC))

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates a person's sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from that person's gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

The UK government defines sex as:

referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions

generally male or female

something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:

a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth

where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/42/3/219/6159361

Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society;

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity

Sex is a label — male or female — that you’re assigned by a doctor at birth based on the genitals you’re born with and the chromosomes you have. It goes on your birth certificate. Gender is much more complex: It’s a social and legal status, and set of expectations from society, about behaviors, characteristics, and thoughts. Each culture has standards about the way that people should behave based on their gender. This is also generally male or female. But instead of being about body parts, it’s more about how you’re expected to act, because of your sex.

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-sex-and-gender-which-are-not-the-same-thing-influence-our-health.html

Sex is a biological trait that is determined by the specific sex chromosomes inherited from one’s parents. Gender, on the other hand, is socially, culturally and personally defined. It includes how individuals see themselves (gender identity), how others perceive them and expect them to behave (gender norms), and the interactions (gender relations) that they have with others.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/difference-between-sex-and-gender

Sex is generally determined at birth according to the baby’s chromosomes, gonads, and anatomy. These three features are used to determine biological sex. Gender is a multi-faceted social system. Gender is largely based on society and culture. There are some consistencies, but it can be concluded that gender is not predetermined based on sex.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550620937188

In this context, “sex” refers to the biological makeup of an individual (e.g., chromosomes, anatomy), while “gender” can refer to associated roles (i.e., what it means to be a woman or a man in a specific culture) or self-identity (i.e., self-categorization into “women” and “men”; American Psychological Association, 2018; Wood & Eagly, 2015).

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n735

Sex, unless otherwise specified, relates to biology: the gametes, chromosomes, hormones, and reproductive organs. Gender relates to societal roles, behaviours, and expectations that vary with time and place, historically and geographically.

"Sex, Gender and Society" - Ann Oakley pg 158

'Sex' is a biological term: 'gender' a psychological and cultural one.

https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199756384/obo-9780199756384-0153.xml

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, a conceptual distinction between “sex” and “gender” arose in the clinical literature on human psychosexual development. Sex came to signify the biological or bodily component of difference, that is, male and female. Gender, on the other hand, came to signify the social or cultural component of difference, that is, masculine and feminine.

(What an excellent summary, if only the Wikipedia article could aim for something like that... Tewdar (talk) 09:55, 12 July 2021 (UTC))

https://amp.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2014/feb/07/mind-your-language-transgender

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109715073556

“Gender” reflects social norms for women and men, whereas “sex” defines biological characteristics.

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/4/424/4967741

sex (the biological attributes of females and males) gender (socially constructed roles, behaviors, and identities in a spectrum, including femininity and masculinity)

https://doi.org/10.1002/9781118924396.wbiea1393

The sex/gender distinction is a distinction between the physical “biological” structure of one's body and particularly the kind of genitalia one has (sex), and the social roles and cultural representations associated with that body in any social setting (gender). It was central to feminist anthropology in the 1970s and 1980s but has since been subject to trenchant criticism on a number of fronts. It remains in common use within anthropology but needs to be treated with care.

(another excellent summary of this topic Tewdar (talk) 10:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC))

https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/188411

the distinction consistently contextualizes the category of gender as segregating by a dynamic of psychology/culture and the category of sex as segregating by a dynamic of biology.

(Alright, it's an undergraduate thesis. But even this, a "Derridean critique", manages to tell us what the distinction *is* before brutally deconstructing it. Sadly, Wikipedia does not... Tewdar (talk) 10:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC))

Comment by Newimpartial - it would be off-brand for me not to point to the framework used by Statistics Canada to collect demographic data for sex and gender, set out here. Among its carefully-wrought language:

Sex and gender refer to two different concepts. Caution should be exercised when comparing counts for sex with those for gender. For example, female sex is not the same as female gender.

Sex refers to sex assigned at birth. Sex is typically assigned based on a person's reproductive system and other physical characteristics.

Gender refers to the gender that a person internally feels ('gender identity' along the gender spectrum) and/or the gender a person publicly expresses ('gender expression') in their daily life... A person's current gender may differ from the sex a person was assigned at birth (male or female) and may differ from what is indicated on their current legal documents. A person's gender may change over time.

Also note that Statistics Canada recognizes but does not use the definition of gender by the WHO as the socially constructed characteristics of men and women. Gender for statistics Canada is classified as Male, Female, or Gender diverse, while sex has two classifications for these demographers: Male/Female, and Male/Female/Intersex - surely the latter was adopted solely to annoy certain denizens of the internet who edit Wikipedia. Newimpartial (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC on Article Lede

Lede does not summarize article properly and is tautologous. Please help to improve it.

Tewdar (talk) 13:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Anyone think they can do better? Then throw your two pence /cents / whatever into the suggestions section below, preceded by a # for maximum clarity. Perhaps CycoMa, Crossroads, Equivamp, Mathglot, or Firefangledfeathers might like to join the festivities.

Here is the lede as it currently stands:

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates a person's sex from that person's gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2][3][4] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender.[1] In other cases, an individual may have sex characteristics that complicate sex assignment, and the person may be intersex.

And here's an example of how the professionals at https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199756384/obo-9780199756384-0153.xml handle it:

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, a conceptual distinction between “sex” and “gender” arose in the clinical literature on human psychosexual development. Sex came to signify the biological or bodily component of difference, that is, male and female. Gender, on the other hand, came to signify the social or cultural component of difference, that is, masculine and feminine.

Suggestions Section

1. The sex and gender distinction is a concept in gender studies, feminist theory and politics which distinguishes between a person's sex and that person's gender. Tewdar (talk) 13:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Hey, Tewdar, that's a bit short, but it gives us a bit of relevant background information. Still sounds a bit redundant though... Tewdar (talk) 08:32, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tewdar - thanks for the feedback. Tewdar (talk) 08:34, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

2. The sex and gender distinction refers to the conceptual differentiation of a person's sex - usually based on biological traits such as their sex cells, chromosomes, gonads, or hormones, and which is assigned at birth as male or female - from that person's gender - generally denoted by sociological or psychological factors such as that person's social role, behaviour or identity, and may be male, female, or non-binary. Tewdar (talk) 14:02, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi there Tewdar, ooh, "conceptual differentiation", well, I suppose it is really. A bit too much detail though: why not just say "biological traits" vs "sociological, psychological, or cultural factors"? Tewdar (talk) 08:32, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

3. In medicine and social sciences, including demography, psychology, sociology, and legal studies, a distinction is made between a person's sex (usually based on biological traits) and that person's gender (generally denoted by sociological, cultural, or psychological factors). Tewdar (talk) 11:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Yo, Tewdar, that looks like a pretty reasonable compromise, why not just put it up as the article lede until someone comes up with a better suggestion? Tewdar (talk) 11:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tewdar - No can do I'm afraid. You clearly don't grasp the Zeitgeist of the project. Tewdar (talk) 11:16, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion Section

• Sex is a trait that defines an individual's reproductive role as either male or female, and is determined by genetics and anatomy; gender refers to the cultural and social manifestations that are generally perceived by individuals within a culture as being external or public presentations or projections of biological sex, or the qualities that are socially defined as pertaining to one or the other sexes.

• The lede should define sex in the narrowest of terms (more in depth discussion of exceptions etc can go later in the article). If it doesn't, the explanation is likely to go over readers' heads, and it isn't the goal to sow confusion. (also there should not be any doublespeak jargon here - sex is only "assigned at birth" in the relatively uncommon cases when anatomy is ambiguous. Using that terminology for all cases makes it meaningless in the intersex case and misleads lay readers, as it sounds like you're saying that sex is chosen at birth - i.e., "doctor, I would like this child to be a boy; please assign it as such accordingly." "Certainly, Madame.")

• Contrariwise, gender should be defined in the broadest possible terms. Don't go into any specifics at all regarding gender in the lede sentence. This is because genderal manifestations vary significantly from culture to culture and there is almost no universal features across cultures that relate to gender. Like, seriously, none. So leave all further specifics and discussion for later in the article.

Firejuggler86 (talk) 00:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Is the above in bold being presented as a candidate for the lede? If so, could you move it to the "Suggestions Section" above? Tewdar (talk) 08:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• It's good that the RfC notice was taken down; this is far too open ended to be a successful RfC. Those only really work as a decision between discrete choices. It seems that just having a parenthetical after "sex" mitigates the issue here. So why not do that? Something like: "(the physical trait of being male or female)". Crossroads ^-talk- 05:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I suspect that without the RfC notice, it would have been just me, you, and CycoMa here, just like the last discussion... Tewdar (talk) 09:33, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, that is pretty much what we had already, until a few months ago when it was unilaterally decided that such a parenthetical was "not needed".Tewdar (talk) 11:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• I believe Tewdar intended to ping me and the other users listed above, but that the notifications didn't generate because it only works when you add the user links in a new line edit with a new signature at the end. Courtesy pings for @CycoMa, Equivamp, and Mathglot: Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: editors may be interested in this archived discussion. I would be fine (at least as a rough starting point) with Crossroad's recent suggestion above or either Crossroad's or Mathglot's suggestions from the prior discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:23, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Also, MOS:REDUNDANCY recommends against doing exactly what the current lead is doing. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 06:18, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh my, that’s a lot. I have two ideas we could do.

Maybe we could combine all that in the lead and give clarification to all that.

Or we could mention the various interpretations regarding this topic.CycoMa (talk) 05:10, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Perhaps we should be aiming for something more like the Oxford Bibliographies example above ie summarizing the history of this concept and contemporary discussion of it. Tewdar (talk) 07:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Also, I collected some sex and gender distinctions from various sources in the section above at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sex_and_gender_distinction#What_is_the_distinction_between_sex_and_gender? that might be useful, though some of them are definitely not RS. Tewdar (talk) 09:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• One thing I think we most certainly need to avoid, is something like "biologists define sex as X, sociologists define gender as Y, therefore by the powers of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, the sex-gender distinction is the difference between X and Y, problem solved, you're welcome..." Tewdar (talk) 19:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Should I assume that one or both of my lede suggestions above are so brilliant that nobody can see any way of improving upon either of them? Perhaps we should have left the RfC notice up... Tewdar (talk) 08:20, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Okay, after the huge number of quality entrants into the new lede suggestions contest lasting several days now, perhaps we should have a quick non-binding straw poll to see if there's any kind of consensus as to which suggestion is the least terrible. Let the voting commence! Inviting:

@CycoMa, Equivamp, Mathglot, Crossroads, Firefangledfeathers, Firejuggler86, and Newimpartial:Tewdar (talk) 17:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• Commenting here due to my input being requested twice. I don't like either of the options currently in the Suggestions section. I think most attempts to include the verbatim phrase "sex and gender distinction" will sound awkward, and it isn't necessary to phrase it that way. I don't have time right now to actually contribute much to this discussion, and don't know when I will have time (hopefully before the RfC concludes) so I won't comment further for now. --Equivamp - talk 17:32, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, sorry for pestering you. I will try to integrate your comment into my suggestion. Tewdar (talk) 17:38, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Definitely not pestering, and I appreciate three consideration that I might want to comment on this issue. More voices here world definitely be helpful. Just didn't want anyone waiting around for input that might never come! --Equivamp - talk 17:42, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

• No version that describes the distinction as a concept in gender studies, feminist theory, and politics should even be considered, since the sex-gender distinction is now mainstream in medicine and in the social sciences, including demography, psychology, sociology, and legal studies. Newimpartial (talk) 17:16, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Sweet. Please, put your suggestion(s) in the Suggestions Section above. Also, the discussion section is above. Please move your comment up. Thanks. Tewdar (talk) 17:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

So how about "... a concept in social sciences, including demography, psychology, sociology, and legal studies", then? Tewdar (talk) 17:29, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Any better? I'm moving this all to the discussion section, hope you don't mind. Tewdar (talk) 17:30, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Straw Poll

• I vote for #3 Tewdar (talk) 17:07, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose all options proposed to date. Option 1 is too restricted in scope, as discussed above (now in "Discussion"), while Option 2 and the revised Option 3 use WP:WEASEL language (conceptual differentiation, supposes a differentiation, etc.). The lede should not go out of its way - as these options do - to imply that the sex-gender distinction "is not a real thing", which it manifestly is. Newimpartial (talk) 17:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) Agree with Newimpartial. Also, not being a grouch, but I'm opposed to all three, because they all start with "The sex and gender distinction is..." and that is an awkward start because it attempts to force a descriptive article title into the first sentence with an unnatural result. This was discussed before at /Archive 2#The first sentence needs a rewrite. Mathglot (talk) 17:44, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Newimpartial and Mathglot. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 18:24, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Gwennie-nyan How can you agree? Their objections are no longer valid, as option #3 has been changed due to their comments? Tewdar (talk)

Any objections? @Mathglot and Newimpartial:Tewdar (talk) 18:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah; you can't conduct a valid straw poll when the options are constantly changing; it is a good thing this isn't an RfC.

Also, while "distinguishes" is better than "differentiates", Option 3 is still WEASEL; in particular, a vague gesture to psychological factors is no replacement for gender identity, which is referenced in the status quo. Newimpartial (talk) 18:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)